N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Reconstruction with new ATC Audio
"Rotor Radio" podcast with Elan Head
Vertical Magazine "Rotor Radio" podcast with Elan Head where she makes some pertinent statements about how difficult it is even for IF inctructor rated pilots to fight those illusions:
https://www.verticalmag.com/news/rot...utm_content=V1
https://www.verticalmag.com/news/rot...utm_content=V1
As I recall 100% success rate.
I have not observed this for a while though ... ? Maybe you are seeing a different issue.
I did write a detailed Tech Support note to the Pprune support forum. Here it is: (if the link is OK:-)
Links to pprune in posts sometimes broken
Edit:- I don't mean to moan at Pprune - just providing info for anyone who wants it. It's I assume a small site with limited resources.
Last edited by jimjim1; 2nd Jul 2020 at 17:50.
I have experienced the cross-coupling of the balance canals on a NVFR flight near the coast. A nav over dark land, to a turning point over a lighthouse. The sea mist was just rolling in below us.
We got to the turning point, we rolled the aircraft to start the turn (1 canal) and pitched the aircraft through the turn (2 canals) and then I turned my head to look at the lighthouse below - its beams of light, like fingers rotating in the mist, totally stuffed me up - eyes telling me one thing and 2 confused balance canals, I felt like I was rotating backwards out of my seat, a very powerful feeling. Lucky I wasn't on the controls at the time.
Maybe something similar happened here, he starts a turn, introduces a climb, turns his head to look for a visual feature, feels he is falling backwards and pokes the nose down...
We got to the turning point, we rolled the aircraft to start the turn (1 canal) and pitched the aircraft through the turn (2 canals) and then I turned my head to look at the lighthouse below - its beams of light, like fingers rotating in the mist, totally stuffed me up - eyes telling me one thing and 2 confused balance canals, I felt like I was rotating backwards out of my seat, a very powerful feeling. Lucky I wasn't on the controls at the time.
Maybe something similar happened here, he starts a turn, introduces a climb, turns his head to look for a visual feature, feels he is falling backwards and pokes the nose down...
Hot and Hi - good link to rotor radio, Elan Head (cool name) talks a lot of sense. It comes down to training and practice in the end - as we all knew
.
I have experienced the leans 'under the hood' but being in cloud is very different - you don't have the psychological safety blanket of being able to peek or just look up, you have to use the instruments and that can make it much more scary.
So add the fear factor to the vestibular illusions and you find yourself in a place that you need good, current skills to recover from.
Taking pilots who have only ever flown 'simulated' IF (under the hood or with foggles) into cloud is something I have done and still do on a regular basis - it often scares them fartless (no-one tells you it is bumpy inside the fluffy stuff) and taking control is another regular occurrence. However, once the fear dissipates and they gain the confidence of trusting the instruments and using the correct techniques, it is amazing the progress the students make.
If you want a challenge as an Instrument Flying instructor, try recovering from a student's 'leans-induced' unusual attitude where height, heading and speed (not to mention glideslope and centreline) have gone badly awry at 3 miles on the ILS, IMC with a 300' cloudbase.
.I have experienced the leans 'under the hood' but being in cloud is very different - you don't have the psychological safety blanket of being able to peek or just look up, you have to use the instruments and that can make it much more scary.
So add the fear factor to the vestibular illusions and you find yourself in a place that you need good, current skills to recover from.
Taking pilots who have only ever flown 'simulated' IF (under the hood or with foggles) into cloud is something I have done and still do on a regular basis - it often scares them fartless (no-one tells you it is bumpy inside the fluffy stuff) and taking control is another regular occurrence. However, once the fear dissipates and they gain the confidence of trusting the instruments and using the correct techniques, it is amazing the progress the students make.
If you want a challenge as an Instrument Flying instructor, try recovering from a student's 'leans-induced' unusual attitude where height, heading and speed (not to mention glideslope and centreline) have gone badly awry at 3 miles on the ILS, IMC with a 300' cloudbase.
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I felt like I was rotating backwards out of my seat, a very powerful feeling. Lucky I wasn't on the controls at the time.
Maybe something similar happened here, he starts a turn, introduces a climb, turns his head to look for a visual feature, feels he is falling backwards and pokes the nose down...
Maybe something similar happened here, he starts a turn, introduces a climb, turns his head to look for a visual feature, feels he is falling backwards and pokes the nose down...
Originally Posted by [email protected]
It comes down to training and practice in the end - as we all knew.
In initial flying training we had a week for aero-medicine. This included a session using a rotating chair, first to demonstrate the leans. Then, eyes closed and chin on chest we were spun again, quite slowly, and after a few seconds told to look up. Many of us flung ourselves from the chair trying to find where up and down were. This experience is rather like doing the dunker - it lets you deal with the real situation because you already know how terrifying it might be. Yes, I have escaped from a ditched helicopter, too. ;-)
I have experienced the leans 'under the hood'
If you want a challenge as an Instrument Flying instructor, try recovering from a student's 'leans-induced' unusual attitude where height, heading and speed (not to mention glideslope and centreline) have gone badly awry at 3 miles on the ILS, IMC with a 300' cloudbase.
I recollect being given unusual attitudes to recover from during IF training,
It is one thing to recover when someone else puts you in a UP for training since you know it is coming - quite another to put yourself into one accidentally or have someone else do it because their scan has broken down.
With reference to what was said the blog, I think it is worth emphasising that these coriolis effects are quite different from the leans, which is itself dangerous enough.
It is impossible to describe the sensation or to train for it, but good, current IF experience must help, and IF in cloud.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
very unlikely to have done that in cloud - the requirement for UP/UA training is normally clear of cloud with a visual horizon just so the instructor can let the UP/UA develop further and recover it safely.
Yes, probably the two standard ones - a low speed autorotative turn and a high speed, high power descending turn.
For experienced Sqn pilots I would get them to try and come to the hover on instruments and the resulting UP was more difficult to recover from as they had put themselves into it. It is quite representative of an IIMC encounter at low speed and low level and the larger yaw inputs and larger power changes of trying to come to a free air hover means that good recovery skills are required and it can be quite a confidence builder.
For experienced Sqn pilots I would get them to try and come to the hover on instruments and the resulting UP was more difficult to recover from as they had put themselves into it. It is quite representative of an IIMC encounter at low speed and low level and the larger yaw inputs and larger power changes of trying to come to a free air hover means that good recovery skills are required and it can be quite a confidence builder.
Crab - did you ever do this one which was quite fun. Come to the hover as you say with the ASE engaged - get the aircraft moving backwards quite fast and then hand over control. The student then puts his feet on the pedals, that disengages the yaw channel and the aircraft does a snap 180 degree turn and the nose drops dramatically!! You need to keep your hands near the controls as said student can start thrashing about a bit. Happy days.........................
No but I did reach out from the RHS of a Wessex and put my finger over the pitot tube as I gave control to my colleague in a UP on SCT IF. He pushed the nose forward assuming we were at zero IAS and then a bit more - we both got a surprise as I removed my finger from the pitot and suddenly had 115 Kts and rising quickly! Learned about messing around on UPs from that one
Originally Posted by [email protected]
No but I did reach out from the RHS of a Wessex and put my finger over the pitot tube as I gave control to my colleague in a UP on SCT IF. He pushed the nose forward assuming we were at zero IAS and then a bit more - we both got a surprise as I removed my finger from the pitot and suddenly had 115 Kts and rising quickly! Learned about messing around on UPs from that one
lucky the heater wasn’t on!
yes, that would have been painful and even more embarrassing .
Not really - just look at where the pilot's hand is on the cyclic - not a big reach at all.
As a QHI I was teaching pilots to become Aircraft Commanders. They were in the LHS "commanding" and I was in the RHS being a "pilot". As we approached the airfield, I purposely went inadvertent IMC to see how the student would cope. He coped well. I, however, got an immediate case of the leans.
So, we're flying round the radar circuit in a Gazelle(so no aids) me fighting the leans, him grinning at me, knowing full well what's happening and asking: "Do you want me to take over?" Me, through gritted teeth: "No, I'm fine".
Joking apart, it was hard work.
So, we're flying round the radar circuit in a Gazelle(so no aids) me fighting the leans, him grinning at me, knowing full well what's happening and asking: "Do you want me to take over?" Me, through gritted teeth: "No, I'm fine".
Joking apart, it was hard work.
Not a reacharound though
Island Express blames ATC for Kobe Bryant crash
The Headline is deceiving as it has nothing to do with Vanessa Bryant, but it is actually Island Express now claiming that the Air Traffic Controllers caused this crash!
https://www.tmz.com/2020/08/25/vanes...icopter-crash/
EXCLUSIVEIsland Express, the company that operated the helicopter that killed Kobe Bryant and 8 others, is suing the 2 air traffic controllers who they claim caused the crash.
The helicopter company claims the 2 air traffic controllers who were guiding the pilot to the Mamba Academy, Kyle Larsen and Matthew Conley, were asked by the pilot for radar guidance, presumably because of the heavy fog. According to the lawsuit, Larsen responded by saying, "I'm going to lose radar and comms [communications] probably pretty shortly so you can just squawk V-F-R [visual flight rules] and when you get closer go to Camarillo tower."
The company claims the controller denied the pilot the use of what it believes is life-saving radar, despite the fact that radar guidance had not yet been lost.
Conley then relieved Larsen and according to the suit, less than 2 minutes later the pilot radioed in, but Conley was unhelpful and uninformed.
MOMENTS AFTER THE CRASHLAUNCH GALLERYSWNSAccording to the suit, the pilot believed he was still operating on radar because the tower operators did not clearly say it was being terminated. Nevertheless, the company claims the helicopter did suddenly lose radio and radar contact in the fog.
NTSBThe suit claims at some point -- presumably when the pilot was in the fog -- radio contact came back, and Conley tried reaching the pilot repeatedly, and that caused the pilot additional stress. What's unclear ... it would seem Conley was calling to guide the pilot.
Short story ... the helicopter company says the tower operators caused the pilot stress and distraction which ultimately caused the crash.
https://www.tmz.com/2020/08/25/vanes...icopter-crash/
KOBE BRYANT HELICOPTER CRASH - ISLAND EXPRESS SUES AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS
8/25/2020 7:04 AM PTEXCLUSIVEIsland Express, the company that operated the helicopter that killed Kobe Bryant and 8 others, is suing the 2 air traffic controllers who they claim caused the crash.
The helicopter company claims the 2 air traffic controllers who were guiding the pilot to the Mamba Academy, Kyle Larsen and Matthew Conley, were asked by the pilot for radar guidance, presumably because of the heavy fog. According to the lawsuit, Larsen responded by saying, "I'm going to lose radar and comms [communications] probably pretty shortly so you can just squawk V-F-R [visual flight rules] and when you get closer go to Camarillo tower."
The company claims the controller denied the pilot the use of what it believes is life-saving radar, despite the fact that radar guidance had not yet been lost.
Conley then relieved Larsen and according to the suit, less than 2 minutes later the pilot radioed in, but Conley was unhelpful and uninformed.
MOMENTS AFTER THE CRASHLAUNCH GALLERYSWNSAccording to the suit, the pilot believed he was still operating on radar because the tower operators did not clearly say it was being terminated. Nevertheless, the company claims the helicopter did suddenly lose radio and radar contact in the fog.NTSBThe suit claims at some point -- presumably when the pilot was in the fog -- radio contact came back, and Conley tried reaching the pilot repeatedly, and that caused the pilot additional stress. What's unclear ... it would seem Conley was calling to guide the pilot.
Short story ... the helicopter company says the tower operators caused the pilot stress and distraction which ultimately caused the crash.
Failure by the pilot to maintain VMC was the very simple cause of the crash .
If the pilot had of stayed out of the ground based obscuration , his passengers would not have died in the aircraft under his control .
Sophiests playing word games . The decision of the Pilot to continue into cloud while "VFR" was the cause of the crash . Simple.
The Ambulance chasers always go after the deepest pockets in a shotgun lawsuit. Hence the ATC getting accused .
I have lots of experience scud running and would never enter cloud that close to ground , I have turned around and tried different routes when I have been stopped by a wall of weather while flying low level .
The Pilot did not take advantage of the aircraft ability to hover . He made many errors but the one that killed him was going into cloud below MSA.
If the pilot had of stayed out of the ground based obscuration , his passengers would not have died in the aircraft under his control .
Sophiests playing word games . The decision of the Pilot to continue into cloud while "VFR" was the cause of the crash . Simple.
The Ambulance chasers always go after the deepest pockets in a shotgun lawsuit. Hence the ATC getting accused .
I have lots of experience scud running and would never enter cloud that close to ground , I have turned around and tried different routes when I have been stopped by a wall of weather while flying low level .
The Pilot did not take advantage of the aircraft ability to hover . He made many errors but the one that killed him was going into cloud below MSA.
There should be a minimum radar vectoring height chart for the area - a controller isn't allowed to give a radar service below that.
ot much doubt the aircraft would have been below the minimum level.
ot much doubt the aircraft would have been below the minimum level.