Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 2nd Feb 2020, 07:03
  #421 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,769
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
And since every commercial pilot needs their IFR rating,
Nope, not for helicopter pilots---

Last edited by Gordy; 2nd Feb 2020 at 16:34. Reason: I was an ass......
Gordy is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 07:51
  #422 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: California
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by n5296s View Post
For what it's worth (thanks Google Street View) I'm pretty sure the doorbell cam is at 4304 Oak Glen St. That puts it about 400 feet off the flight path, according to the ADS-B data . The timing is just right. If the ADS-B data is to be fully believed, they were already in a 2000+ ft/min descent and 45 degree or so bank at that point.
Got my hands on the FULL ADS-B file which is 2 data frames per second as opposed to the one frame every five seconds that's been going around. Working on a .KML file for google earth. Looks to be a controlled left turn right over that address, until the last few data frames. Here's a link to an image host since I don't have 10 posts-

imgurDOTcom/a/KNsDRPu (replace 'DOT' with . )
377 Pete is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 08:13
  #423 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Africa
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by harrogate View Post
This doorbel video cam audio eerily checks out with the witness description of the final moments and abrupt end. Tough listen.

https://youtu.be/guGQyqki6ik

Tough listen for sure, From my analytical mind the audio indicates an operational vehicle up until impact.
Painted into a corner RIP.
Bravo Delta is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 08:15
  #424 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: US
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by pilotsun View Post
FR has altitude over 2000 at that point and the ceiling at that time was between 1000-1300 depending on who you listen to. That would be well into the soup.
If you're saying 2000 is much greater than 1300, it's not that straightforward.

FR/ADS-B altitude is Pressure Altitude (29.92 inHg). Need to add about 220 ft to correct for local pressure (VNY altimeter 30.16).

Ceiling is AGL. Elevation at 101 & Las Virgenes is ~800 ft.

But the ceiling in the mountains could be very different than the ceiling quoted by VNY ATC.

NY Times quoted witnesses saying the clouds were 300 ft AGL at the time of the crash.


Originally Posted by n5296s View Post
For what it's worth (thanks Google Street View) I'm pretty sure the doorbell cam is at 4304 Oak Glen St. That puts it about 400 feet off the flight path, according to the ADS-B data. The timing is just right. If the ADS-B data is to be fully believed, they were already in a 2000+ ft/min descent and 45 degree or so bank at that point.
There may have been multiple doorbell cam videos, but the one I saw started at 9:45:01 am PST, which was +1280 fpm ascent at that time.
rogercopy is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 10:00
  #425 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,571
Originally Posted by n5296s View Post
Out of curiosity, where do I go to find out what that DOES sound like? Somehow it has been absent from my life experience so far. Why would a helicopter sound different if it is descending or banking? I do agree that the sound is pretty consistent up to the last moment.


For what it's worth (thanks Google Street View) I'm pretty sure the doorbell cam is at 4304 Oak Glen St. That puts it about 400 feet off the flight path, according to the ADS-B data ( https://caltopo.com/m/P69T ). The timing is just right. If the ADS-B data is to be fully believed, they were already in a 2000+ ft/min descent and 45 degree or so bank at that point.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1381...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/place/43...4d-118.7016795
5,000ft per minute in a 90 degree bank, I assure you you’d know about if you heard it !
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 12:06
  #426 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Inside the Industry
Posts: 798
Sounds like a normally functioning S-76B to me, right up until impact.
industry insider is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 12:43
  #427 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,788
It has already been acknowledged that the ADSB data may well be unreliable and the doorbell audio sounds like industry insider says- just a helicopter passing overhead in the cruise.

All the talk of rates of descent and angles of bank is pure conjecture and not really helpful to anyone.

It seems to me that we are far more likely to be talking CFIT than LOC - but we still don't know why.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 13:09
  #428 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,280
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
It has already been acknowledged that the ADSB data may well be unreliable and the doorbell audio sounds like industry insider says- just a helicopter passing overhead in the cruise.

All the talk of rates of descent and angles of bank is pure conjecture and not really helpful to anyone.

It seems to me that we are far more likely to be talking CFIT than LOC - but we still don't know why.
And, we may never know.
aterpster is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 14:07
  #429 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,633
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Could anyone who is familiar with this type say whether the engine noise sounds normal? Or is that not possible to judge from that clip?
ive listened to the clip a fair few times now and there does seem to be a barely perceptible rise and fall in sound from the tail rotor, but is it just the recording effect, or something else? It sounds like a normal s76 in all other respects, and I’ve heard and flown enough of them to be fairly certain.but, it definitely sounds as if flying slower than normal cruise speed and possibly turning.
helimutt is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 14:28
  #430 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,615
Insider,

What is the difference in sounds made by the various models of the 76?

Does a B Model sound any different than an A model or C model?

Not picking on you....but as I read this thread I am amazed at the analytical abilities of some of the other posters based upon scant information and far too often no experience or professional qualifications at all.

I know what you meant by your post....the sound track did not seem to demonstrate "unusual" sounds being emitted by the passing helicopter....but yours is a simple example.

On the other side....some of the efforts to calciulate sounds, ROD's, and other situations by using some Data is interesting but yet in the end serves no real purpose other than to advance the discussion a bit.

At least those folks are trying to make a legitimate contribution as compared to those who are just plain guessing at something with no basis whatsoever.
SASless is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 14:51
  #431 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: US
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by 377 Pete View Post
Got my hands on the FULL ADS-B file which is 2 data frames per second as opposed to the one frame every five seconds that's been going around. Working on a .KML file for google earth. Looks to be a controlled left turn right over that address, until the last few data frames.
Remember to correct the altitude. ADS-B is Pressure Altitude. Otherwise, your KML will look like the helicopter was only skimming over Hwy 101 as low as under 100 ft at some places, which is misleading.
rogercopy is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 15:55
  #432 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,194
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Does a B Model sound any different than an A model or C model?.
They all sound the same to me. And not only that, I wouldn't be able to pick a difference in sound between single or twin engine operation, assuming the main rotor speed was the same AEO or OEI.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 16:00
  #433 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by Gomrath View Post
Not required.
The 118 is at a higher elevation and most likely the Cloud base would have been lower. The Conejo grade is very much a gorge. It then drops steeply into the Camarillo plain. There are major electrical power lines on concrete pylons that cross the Conejo grade about 200-300 feet above the gorge. I live 1 mile from the location and drove by some 0 minutes before the accident. The weather was grim. Certainly not the more usual marine layer that rarely comes down to ground level. This morning it was a wet fog that shrouded the hills. Not wet through rain but wet from the thick fog. You could not see the crash site from half a mile away on the 101.
Point is, it had been foggy since dawn. VNY and BUR were both IMC.
The Part 135 operating license was VFR only.
Senseless.
This is probably a silly question, but I don't understand this portion of the transcript with ATC (bold is by me):

Helicopter: Van Nuys. Helicopter 2EchoX, we are currently with you for the special VFR transition. We are currently at 1,400 [feet].

Van Nuys airport tower: Helicopter 2EchoX, Van Nuys tower. Wind calm, visibility 2½. Ceiling 1,100 overcast. Van Nuys altimeter’s 30.16. Cleared into Van Nuys Class Delta, northeast of Van Nuys along the 118 Freeway westbound. Advise when you’re in VFR conditions or when you’re clear of the Van Nuys Class Delta. Transition when you’re at or below 2,500 [feet].

Helicopter: 2EchoX-ray. Advise in VFR condition, and then we stay on the 118. We’re currently at 1,400 [feet], and we have 0235.

Van Nuys tower: Helicoper 2EchoX, thank you. And once you’re clear of Van Nuys Delta, did you want to talk to SoCal?

Helicopter: Affirmative. 2EchoX.

Helicopter: Tower for 2EchoX-ray, can we start go ahead and turn toward the southwest for the 101?

Van Nuys tower: Helicopter 2EchoX-ray, approved, and are you transitioning in VFR conditions?

Helicopter: VFR conditions, 1,500 [feet]. 2EchoX.



How were they in SVFR at 1400 if the Van Nuys ceiling is 1100? Weren't they already in then clouds then? And then she asks if they are transitioning in VFR conditions and he says yes they are but at 1500? Seems conflicting to me yet ATC doesn't seem concerned.
IamNew is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 16:04
  #434 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 372
Originally Posted by n5296s View Post
It's slightly to the right of 101, which makes a perfect visual ILS (if you see what I mean).

It's at 692 feet (according to caltopo), so IF the ceilings being given were correct, it would have worked. But your suggestion of hitting a fog bank seems highly probable, so the ceiling info would be wrong in that case.
As for taking a car from KCMA - it's only 3 miles or so but if they were already hitting a deadline... we all know that "just taking a car" easily adds half an hour to the journey time.
There is no pad in Newbury Park. They were heading to CMA. Then a car back.
Gomrath is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 16:37
  #435 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: East Coast
Posts: 11
Supervision/Management Question

In a small charter company like this is there typically any oversight or review of a pilot's plan for a mission? I understand from reading above that the pilot was the unofficial (or official) "chief pilot" for the company. It seems to me that had there been a review of the available Wx before departure, and a discussion of "what ifs" and responses with the pilot by a supervisor/manager, at a minimum the pilot may have been better prepared to execute one of the various maneuvers suggested above when he lost VFR. Also, and I think this is really important, the pilot would then have "air cover" by management with the client, with whom there was a relationship apparently, so to speak if he was forced to abort, recover VFR, find a landing location, and arrange a car. Furthermore, one would expect that the pilot had briefed the VIP before departure on the weather driven possibilities. The whole thing just seems so sad and so senseless.
EPHD75 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 16:38
  #436 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: yes
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Well, yes, the full list is
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.57

If you choose an instrument approach that requires you to track a course, and then ask ATC to put you on hold for one of the approaches, you're done? If you do it at night, or under the hood?

And since every commercial pilot needs their IFR rating, it's in the interest of the company to keep it up. In fact, my information is that the accident pilot was both the company's chief pilot and a cfii, aka an instrument instructor, who could've done the hood flights with the other company pilots?

So there is incentive for the pilot to be legally IFR-rated, which was my point.
It's clear that tells us nothing about how many flight hours he had actually logged in IMC and clouds.
An interesting perspective: simply fly 6 approaches under the hood on one flight, count that as the tracking/intercepting, and execute 1 circuit of a holding pattern. With that suggestion, is there any doubt there are accidents like this?
JimEli is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 16:46
  #437 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Itinerant
Posts: 685
Originally Posted by IamNew View Post
This is probably a silly question, but I don't understand this portion of the transcript with ATC (bold is by me):

Helicopter: Van Nuys. Helicopter 2EchoX, we are currently with you for the special VFR transition. We are currently at 1,400 [feet].

Van Nuys airport tower: Helicopter 2EchoX, Van Nuys tower. Wind calm, visibility 2½. Ceiling 1,100 overcast. Van Nuys altimeter’s 30.16. Cleared into Van Nuys Class Delta, northeast of Van Nuys along the 118 Freeway westbound. Advise when you’re in VFR conditions or when you’re clear of the Van Nuys Class Delta. Transition when you’re at or below 2,500 [feet].

Helicopter: 2EchoX-ray. Advise in VFR condition, and then we stay on the 118. We’re currently at 1,400 [feet], and we have 0235.

Van Nuys tower: Helicoper 2EchoX, thank you. And once you’re clear of Van Nuys Delta, did you want to talk to SoCal?

Helicopter: Affirmative. 2EchoX.

Helicopter: Tower for 2EchoX-ray, can we start go ahead and turn toward the southwest for the 101?

Van Nuys tower: Helicopter 2EchoX-ray, approved, and are you transitioning in VFR conditions?

Helicopter: VFR conditions, 1,500 [feet]. 2EchoX.

How were they in SVFR at 1400 if the Van Nuys ceiling is 1100? Weren't they already in then clouds then? And then she asks if they are transitioning in VFR conditions and he says yes they are but at 1500? Seems conflicting to me yet ATC doesn't seem concerned.
Hi IamNew,

The simple answer is that the official current weather for Van Nuys (ceiling, visibility, temp, etc) is observed and/or measured at a specific location on the airport. The visibility and cloud height(s) in other areas of the Van Nuys Class D airspace may be -- and often are -- quite different than the officially recorded weather. For the controller, if the pilot says he is "VFR" then the controller will, in most cases*, accept the pilot's statement, as that aircraft certainly could be in VFR conditions at 1400' or 1500', even if the official ceiling (where that observation or measurement was taken) is 1100'. Which is also why she sounds "unconcerned"; it's not an unusual situation in itself. ( *Subject to certain conditions under which the controller may not issue clearance but we don't need to get into that in this example)

grizz
grizzled is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 17:21
  #438 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,247
The NTSB CVR folks have capability for sound signature analysis and may be able to extract useful data from the various doorbell cam audio files. Tail and rotor RPM shouldn't be too hard. A control malfunction may have a sound signature. Possibly rotor aspect can be determined from doorbell location and ADS-B position data. Raw ADS-B transmissions are good data, especially given the hoops that have to be jumped through to certify an installation.

Result being that a subset of data normally available from FDR and CVR exists, but has to be collected from disparate sources.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 17:22
  #439 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by IamNew View Post
This is probably a silly question, but I don't understand this portion of the transcript with ATC (bold is by me):

Helicopter: Van Nuys. Helicopter 2EchoX, we are currently with you for the special VFR transition. We are currently at 1,400 [feet].

Van Nuys airport tower: Helicopter 2EchoX, Van Nuys tower. Wind calm, visibility 2½. Ceiling 1,100 overcast. Van Nuys altimeter’s 30.16. Cleared into Van Nuys Class Delta, northeast of Van Nuys along the 118 Freeway westbound. Advise when you’re in VFR conditions or when you’re clear of the Van Nuys Class Delta. Transition when you’re at or below 2,500 [feet].

Helicopter: 2EchoX-ray. Advise in VFR condition, and then we stay on the 118. We’re currently at 1,400 [feet], and we have 0235.

Van Nuys tower: Helicoper 2EchoX, thank you. And once you’re clear of Van Nuys Delta, did you want to talk to SoCal?

Helicopter: Affirmative. 2EchoX.

Helicopter: Tower for 2EchoX-ray, can we start go ahead and turn toward the southwest for the 101?

Van Nuys tower: Helicopter 2EchoX-ray, approved, and are you transitioning in VFR conditions?

Helicopter: VFR conditions, 1,500 [feet]. 2EchoX.



How were they in SVFR at 1400 if the Van Nuys ceiling is 1100? Weren't they already in then clouds then? And then she asks if they are transitioning in VFR conditions and he says yes they are but at 1500? Seems conflicting to me yet ATC doesn't seem concerned.
the ceiling is height above ground. Pilots give their altitude at height above mean seal level. Van Nuys field elevation is around 700 feet above seal level. Therefore a ceiling of 1100 feet would put the cloud bases at 1800 feet MSL. The pilot reported his altitude as indicated by his altimeter as 1400 feet MSL. Therefore at the time about 400 feet below the cloud bases.


TriStar_drvr is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2020, 18:05
  #440 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by TriStar_drvr View Post
the ceiling is height above ground. Pilots give their altitude at height above mean seal level. Van Nuys field elevation is around 700 feet above seal level. Therefore a ceiling of 1100 feet would put the cloud bases at 1800 feet MSL. The pilot reported his altitude as indicated by his altimeter as 1400 feet MSL. Therefore at the time about 400 feet below the cloud bases.
thanks, makes sense.
IamNew is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.