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Hill Helicopters HX50

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Hill Helicopters HX50

Old 29th Aug 2023, 14:28
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Originally Posted by 206 jock
I wonder what the legacy manufacturers think of Hill? Is it #1 item on the agenda of every Board meeting they hold? Is one (or more) of them lining up a purchase of the upstart to take them out of the equation (is that JH's real plan?)?

Or are they mostly concerned that there are few potential purchasers holding off buying one of their machines as they are Hill 'buyers'.

Who knows, eh?
It worked for Marenco.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 14:39
  #1002 (permalink)  
 
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"Is one (or more) of them lining up a purchase of the upstart to take them out of the equation (is that JH's real plan?)?"

Mmmmm...

Our friend CRAN posted this in Jan 2020

Leonardo to buy Kopter for $185M

(I am pretty sure Jason Hill checks this HX50 thread everyday)
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 15:48
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206 having paid the running costs on 300/500/341/206/350 i wouldnt give Airbus my vote, in fact all the manufacturers are in league as to who can rip the customer off the most. Trim actuator went in one of the 500's yesterday PMA new one $ 15000, i daren't ask about an OEM one. So that is 12000 of your best beer tokens for a small electric motor moving a rod and spring .....really
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 16:05
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Originally Posted by hargreaves99
I keep meeting more and more people in the UK that have placed a deposit on one.

Hill must be pissing off the major manufacturers a bit, one helicopter sales broker did say to me that Hill was hoovering up a lot of sales that would have gone to the R44/R66/B505/EC120 etc
I doubt it. The traditional manufacturers have a certified product that you can use for silly things like making money.
This will hurt Robbie (eventually) and their traditional market, as well as the pre-owned market. I doubt the big guys are losing any sleep.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 16:27
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
I doubt it. The traditional manufacturers have a certified product that you can use for silly things like making money.
This will hurt Robbie (eventually) and their traditional market, as well as the pre-owned market. I doubt the big guys are losing any sleep.
I am sure that you are right, but of course Hill has an eye on certification (HC50) .....and the recent odd reference to a bigger machine in the pipeline.

This latter thing is what's pricking my interest of late. Why bother mentioning that when you still have nothing that turns in your workshop? Unless of course, you have an agenda. The dream of any 'disruptor' is to sell out (for megabucks).
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 16:36
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The dream of any 'disruptor' is to sell out (for megabucks).
Mmm, yes, good point. There is an awful lot of hype, belief and a very large order book, so I can easily see him selling out, or at least getting a sh*tload of Venture Capital funding (once it flies in err <insert your guess here>)

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Old 29th Aug 2023, 16:42
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Originally Posted by 206 jock;11493639e
Hill has an eye on certification (HC50) .....and the recent odd reference to a bigger machine in the pipeline.
Indeed, there is complete overlap with his certified/kit single.
The twin I just suspect is just an intellectual moist dream and, if it ever got that far, is a long, long way away.
It is a very different market, one that tends to favour utility over glamour, which is at odds with his design philosophy.
Unless you're the wealthy bloke in the back, in which case saving a few bucks and buying a "lesser" brand doesn't appeal.
If he can position a machine of that spec at traditional certified single-engined money, that would be a different kettle of fish.
His dance card is full enough getting the experiment working, let alone getting it certified and proving it is reliable and safe in the wild.
I won't start baking that humble pie just yet.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 17:36
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I agree with Bell_ringer; there is no way he can get an entire helicopter certified so quickly, along with the engine and avionics which are also not certified. There is a reason manufacturers almost never introduce new types and instead introduce variations of existing types. Even most Robinsons are used for training or tours (which the HX50 can't be used for) so really none of the current helicopter manufacturers will be too badly affected. But if somehow the HC50 does eventually get fully certified then that's when things will change dramatically. But I think it may never happen.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 17:51
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Interesting twist: Hill owes around 45 million. If he does sell and new owner decides that it either needs a price hike (likely) or bins it completely (even more likely due to fixed price contracts), it's on the hook for extra 45 mil. I don't think Hill will see a lot of money out of this.
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 15:52
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Response from Staffs Moorlands 30/08

Submission of an EIA required ......

Clearly impacting our hamlet and surrounding areas.

Told you .... this will never happen !

Better get " plan B " planning application in as schmoozing with Barratt isnt working.
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 16:31
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I am not so sure. "money talks", and there will be huge pressure on the council to approve this planning application. investment and jobs in the area etc etc

especially if Hill manage to submit a "sympathetic"/"fudged"* noise impact assessment

*delete as approproate
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 16:58
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[QUOTE=hargreaves99;11494941]I am not so sure. "money talks", and there will be huge pressure on the council to approve this planning application. investment and jobs in the area etc etc

especially if Hill manage to submit a "sympathetic"/"fudged"* noise impact

There is also huge pressure from residents and council members against it.
This development will also be next to a 162 ish housing development the owner of the land has also submitted.
Honestly you couldnt make it up.
Report on Staffs Moorland website
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 03:37
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Originally Posted by Hughes500
206 having paid the running costs on 300/500/341/206/350 i wouldnt give Airbus my vote, in fact all the manufacturers are in league as to who can rip the customer off the most. Trim actuator went in one of the 500's yesterday PMA new one $ 15000, i daren't ask about an OEM one. So that is 12000 of your best beer tokens for a small electric motor moving a rod and spring .....really
I know, I took one of these apart recently, for a bit of reverse engineering thinking exercise
  • It has many small machined parts that are quite complex.
  • it has a custom motor made by Maxon, a swiss maker that also made motors for the Mars rover
  • It has several Layers of quality control and certification
but most of all, its a small serie, of 100 quantity max (mine has serial number 89).
1000s of man hour for the development, $1000 swiss motor, and all the cost asociated to making things in a non-mass production way

Its not all the OEM fault, its also the helicopter industry is too small to step away from its own R&D cost
I don't think Hill is making it any easier by redoing everything, every single component himself.

As his operation, (Hill Helicopters) matures he will becomes just like the other OEMs, bound by the same economic rules.
but at that time, you the customer will have no other choice than to eat from his "vertically-integrated" supply chain.




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Old 1st Sep 2023, 08:58
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Agile, i understand that but let's be honest it is way over engineered for what it actually is and does! I have to disagree that the motor and gearbox were designed entirely for a Hughes 500 ! plus they have made 8000 Hughes 500's so not 100, but a small production run over 60 years but an electric motor is an electric motor with effectively a worm drive.
Should have added there is no research and development costs in an electric motor in this day and age ! Bit like the argument for the R and D on hydraulic emergency release on cargo hook, the quality of the part is less than on my hydraulic mountain bike brakes but they are 1/10 of the cost and in more ways a bit more critical to my health and safety
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 13:24
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Originally Posted by Hughes500
plus they have made 8000 Hughes 500's so not 100, but a small production run over 60 years but an electric motor is an electric motor with effectively a worm drive.
The point being made is that they are ordering 100 spares at a time, that is a limited run and is inefficient and expensive, the number of airframes made is irrelevant as they don't all exist any longer and the notion that all of them would need a motor simultaneously is ludicrous.
MD has been circling the drain for some time.
When you buy older machines from manufacturers struggling to keep afloat, spares will cost you. That is the trade off for an "affordable" aircraft.

I know a lot of electrical engineers that will tell you that the notion of a "motor being a motor" is plain silly.

When Prophet Hill has actually proven he can produce parts of a high standard, with longevity, then we can revisit this subject. Until then, comparing vapourware banged together in a modern version of a shed, to something produced to certified standards, with the required tooling, doesn't accomplish anything apart from repeat a very tired, broken record.

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Old 7th Sep 2023, 07:59
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planning decision delayed again..until 19th Oct 2023....

Planning Applications - Staffordshire Moorlands District Council
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 12:04
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OK, I 'll give this to Hill. Things like these are outside of his control.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 13:24
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In this instance I do actually feel for doc Hill, being messed around by the planning process just extends the uncertainty for the business and clients. It can only make a plan B more complicated.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 20:41
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Ironic really, years ago aircraft manufacturers established airfields and build aircraft factories on them, now houses are built on the airfields and Mr Hill in battle with the planners.
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Old 8th Sep 2023, 06:56
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Bellringer
I am afraid you are caught up in the big con from manufacturers . Give you an example of a pressure switch, i know it is made by a local company that sells it to a well known OEM, It is a switch that has no aviation certification until it is given a piece of paper by OEM. Switch sold to OEM for 2000 euros, cost to you and me with a piece of paper 20000 euros ! My next door neighbour used to make RR 250 compressor wheels, cost 180 to make I will let you tell me what RR charge for them . I wouldnt mind what goes on in aviation but really ....... one of my pilots used to be a chief auditor for Jaguar Landrover, he was horrified when he came to aviation, his comment was what a joke , no manufacturer would last 10 minutes in the quality of the product compared to automotive ( and that is from Jag Landrover !!!!) here is an example he pulled out. HTC main rotor blades, an issue on debonding of blade from the grip, aviation cure AD check the blade every 200 tq events. Automotive would recall every blade and replace and then immediately, change and improve the process otherwise sued for millions and customers would go else where.
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