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PHOENIX "rescue" No thanks!

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PHOENIX "rescue" No thanks!

Old 4th Jun 2019, 22:21
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Thumbs down PHOENIX "rescue" No thanks!

This is horrific and hard to watch. Google The Phoenix Fire Department stretcher spin. Jun 04, 2019

Not sure if the 'lookers on' have a tag line or not, I couldn't see one, but if so, it's totally ineffective.
Looks to me like relatively flat ground to the pilots ahead and left. I don't get it.
Winching should be an absolute last resort tool.
This "rescue" demonstration does our industry no good at all. The stretcher is even referred to as being "removed from the mountain in a "screamer suit"".

This is no good at all. Get professional or get out.

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Old 4th Jun 2019, 23:23
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I assume you mean this one - I have to confess I was expecting to find you had exaggerated it but I was wrong!! What on earth would cause that to happen?

Cheers

TeeS
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 01:07
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Press conference. Lady says "it got on social media and there were a lot of comments that showed people didn't understand what happened."
Yes. That is exaaaactly the problem.

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Old 5th Jun 2019, 02:02
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They’re just getting a jump on the rest of the industry. Carving out a new niche of training up commercial space tourists. This is their G force trainer.

jokes aside, looking at the video either the weak link broke or they attached it tag line to the hook itself rather than the stretcher? Either way I’m not sure why you would persist rather than stop the spin first on the ground and regroup.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 02:09
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First off, winching is the last option. If there is no other way of getting them out, winch.
Secondly if you have to winch, make it as low as you can, and if you do ALWAYS have a tag line and someone on the end of it who knows whats expected of them.
Never ever do a stretcher winch without a tag line.
I've seen quite a few similar videos from the US that don't seem to follow any of these guidelines.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 05:08
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I can see my breakfast sprayed all of over this topic........I bet the poor old Lady was talking to GOD on the great white phone during this event
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 06:41
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Words from the Technical crew member - 'It happens sometimes but when it does we are trained to deal with'! Not from the video evidence - they took forever to sort the problem out.

I'm with you Havick, they should have stopped as soon as the line broke and put the stretcher back on the ground to reset.

Not the first time someone on the ground has made a mess of using the hi-line/tag line though.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 07:54
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Surely a spin rate as high as that could have resulted in brain injuries or the patient throwing up and choking. What on earth was the crew doing (we know what they weren't doing..)?
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 08:59
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Makes you wonder what kind of G loading that rate of spin would cause?
Flunked out at maths but just from a wild arse guess it would be well into the redout zone.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 10:30
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This looks terrifying, my questions would be, who is making the decisions and surely there must be radio contact between ground crew and the aircraft? Surely someone(apart from the patient) must be screaming STOP, STOP! As mentioned by others surely they should have just gone back to point A set the stretcher down and started again? I have zero experience of winching but this just looks awfully wrong to me!
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 10:40
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The winch-operator/technical crew member in the door should have directed the pilot to descend and also winched out to increase the distance between the stretcher and the downwash - maybe they don't talk to each other much!

A simple 5 -10 knot hover taxi would also have minimised the spin.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 10:50
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Just on ABC TV. Lateral motion brought the spin rate down substantially. At max spin, a return to ground would have risked a nasty contact between stretcher and surface features?
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 11:41
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Originally Posted by dogsridewith View Post
Just on ABC TV. Lateral motion brought the spin rate down substantially. At max spin, a return to ground would have risked a nasty contact between stretcher and surface features?
Hence the need to winch out as well - the further the stretcher from the helicopter, the less the effect of the downwash - the crew chief said the rate of rotation reduced when they winched out but then they winched in again and it span faster!
With reduced spin rate the chances of one of the ground party being able to control the stretcher are increased - no need to actually put it on the ground.

They should have put the stretcher back down as soon as it was apparent that the tag line/hi-line wasn't working.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 12:39
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Now that was hard to watch. I am glad she is ok.
I lost a good friend in a long line accident some 10 years ago.
He forgot to reel in the line as he descended down a mountain for a new load, line swung up in tail rotor. It was over in less then 5 sec.
This winching stuff is no joke!

Some remedial training required here, me thinks!

You all stay safe now.
Regards
Cpt B
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 12:39
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I see a niche market developing
people pay good money at carnivals to experience uncontrolled vomiting and dizziness...but I need to make money at this....would an R22 be cost effective?? or should I buy up a surplus EC225 and go big???
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 21:06
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Makes you wonder what kind of G loading that rate of spin would cause?
I was bored and so I did a physics refresher. I timed the 10 fastest rotations to take about 8 seconds, so a period of 0.8 seconds. Assuming a 1.6 m patient, the maximum G force at her head would be about 0.6 .

That is equivalent to a continuous bunt of -0.6 G. Unpleasant but probably not red-out inducing. Probably more concerning would be the fear brought on by seeing the helicopter rotating over your head at more than once per second! I think I would close my eyes.
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 21:18
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That is equivalent to a continuous bunt of -0.6 G. Unpleasant but probably not red-out inducing. Probably more concerning would be the fear brought on by seeing the helicopter rotating over your head at more than once per second! I think I would close my eyes.
And if the patient already had head or other injuries....?

This should never have happened - the rotation could have been stopped as soon as it began.
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 04:00
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The winch-operator/technical crew member in the door should have directed the pilot to descend and also winched out to increase the distance between the stretcher and the downwash - maybe they don't talk to each other much!

A simple 5 -10 knot hover taxi would also have minimised the spin.
Serious question Crab, why get the helicopter to descend? I'm experienced in winching operations and did not consider than an option. I'm interested to know why you think it is?
The winch out goes without saying.
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 07:32
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If you turn your phone upside down it's actually a woman rescuing a helicopter.
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Old 6th Jun 2019, 07:44
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Originally Posted by India Four Two View Post
I was bored and so I did a physics refresher. I timed the 10 fastest rotations to take about 8 seconds, so a period of 0.8 seconds. Assuming a 1.6 m patient, the maximum G force at her head would be about 0.6 .

That is equivalent to a continuous bunt of -0.6 G. Unpleasant but probably not red-out inducing. Probably more concerning would be the fear brought on by seeing the helicopter rotating over your head at more than once per second! I think I would close my eyes.
My quick calculation it's closer to 6.5g's assuming 1.8m patient at your calculated 85rpm
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