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Helicopter crashes into the Hudson River NYC

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Helicopter crashes into the Hudson River NYC

Old 30th May 2019, 18:49
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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FH1100 - I would agree with you and be kinder to him if he hadn't had one bite of the cherry and not learned anything from it - yes, people get caught out but don't usually go back and do it again hoping for a different outcome.
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Old 30th May 2019, 20:40
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Robbie skipped right over this part.....it is imperative to maintain positive control of the yaw rate and devote full attention to flying the helicopter.

If One applies FULL Pedal and the aircraft continues to yaw....One has lost control of the helicopter.

To come back around and try the same thing a second time and expecting better results begs incredulity.

Perhaps that small blurb...."Devote full attention to flying the Helicopter" is a bit difficult for some folks to grasp.

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Old 30th May 2019, 23:04
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Robbie skipped right over this part.....it is imperative to maintain positive control of the yaw rate and devote full attention to flying the helicopter.

If One applies FULL Pedal and the aircraft continues to yaw....One has lost control of the helicopter.

To come back around and try the same thing a second time and expecting better results begs incredulity.

Perhaps that small blurb...."Devote full attention to flying the Helicopter" is a bit difficult for some folks to grasp.
Hard to imagine this guy having full left pedal applied (on that part I do agree with Bob). Looks more like his feet were asleep as he swung it around.
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Old 31st May 2019, 07:47
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Talking

I still remember when learning to fly. Out with instructor on the hovering square on a windy day.
I was having some difficulty with yaw control out of wind and I was using so
much pressure on the pedals my feet were sliding up the pedals and they still wouldnít move
Iím thinking why is my instructor stopping me move them with his size 10ís
A quick glance to his side, to my surprise his feet werenít even on the pedals.
I realised I was fighting against myself. DOH !!
I Learned a bit more about flying from that.
R
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:01
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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A quick training technique is to get the student to do complete pedal turns with only one foot on the pedals.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:37
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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A quick training technique is to get the student to do complete pedal turns with only one foot on the pedals.
That would be considered negative training in many circles - like teaching them to hover without one hand on the collective.

Better to practice slow speed manoeuvering flying figure of 8s over an airfield/field with 10 to 15 kts of wind to deal with. Do it at a sensible height - ie not at 5 ft - and they will soon learn how to deal with weathercocking.
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Old 31st May 2019, 17:40
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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LTE Vs LTA

Ideal aircraft to discuss this as the Jetbox was notorious for tail rotor "issues" to be polite.
Grateful for corrections as I am getting long in the tooth now and much has happened since I flew Jetboxes many years ago, so:

The jetbox had a (unfair?) reputation for becoming unstable in the TR vicinity due to LTA (Loss of tail rotor authority), due to design limits surrounding the OEM TR. I believe this was later redesigned out and the later models have not experienced the same number of issues.
So LTA is where a TR isn't 'man enough' to accomodate a broad spectrum of directional airflow inputs compared to other similar competitive helos. The TR blades simply weren't beefy or big enough to cope with some extreme demnds with pitch and ergo wind direction.

LTE on the other hand is a phenomenon where many helos 'may' suffer, simply because the aircraft ends up in a situation where even the beefy/big TR blades simply can't compensate for the massive increase in the 'big green arrow' and the TR "breaks away" from controlled flight. Obviously this is an aerodynamic phenomenon as opposed to LTA which is a design problem.

In the interim US safety report, notice how the pilot actually states both phenomenon in one paragraph, as he doesn't fully understand the difference between them...something few pilots fully understand, I suspect.

Comments appreciated.
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Old 31st May 2019, 19:59
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Thomas coupling View Post
...
LTE on the other hand is a phenomenon where many helos 'may' suffer, simply because the aircraft ends up in a situation where even the beefy/big TR blades simply can't compensate for the massive increase in the 'big green arrow' and the TR "breaks away" from controlled flight. Obviously this is an aerodynamic phenomenon as opposed to LTA which is a design problem.
...
Its simple. Design choice/compromise causes insufficient TR authority (LTA) which leads to higher susceptibility to LTE. A quick search of the NTSB database reveals that only 2 production helicopters are truly affected.
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Old 31st May 2019, 20:55
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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One Stat I have read is 95% of all LTE accidents world-wide occur in helicopters built by a single Helicopter Manufacturer.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 12:21
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Of all the subjects, the most varied responses seem to be attracted by LTE.
All these aircraft have sufficient TR authority, some, particularly the earlier models, seem to have insufficient headroom to compensate for lazy or poor technique.
This Bell had 1 crew at sea-level, blaming the end result in this case on the design department is a stretch.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 13:02
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Yep, I reckon. I've never hit the pedal stops in a 206B2/3 or 206L1/3. Even when operating hot and heavy above 10,000'.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 14:11
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Yep, I reckon. I've never hit the pedal stops in a 206B2/3 or 206L1/3. Even when operating hot and heavy above 10,000'.
G'day GB...I have in the JetBanger @ 16,000' ISA +25 & the B3 easy hit the power pedal stop above 20,K' when it's ISA +30 with oodles of Ng left to to pull, bit like the old LongBox 1's
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 23:17
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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VF...I'm more normal than you and wouldn't dream about taking a 2-bladed Bell that high, no matter how many engines it had!
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 02:03
  #54 (permalink)  
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G'day GB...I have in the JetBanger @ 16,000' ISA +25 & the B3 easy hit the power pedal stop above 20,K' when it's ISA +30 with oodles of Ng left to to pull, bit like the old LongBox 1's
Quote

Seems like the new guy on here with post #51(above) might know a thing or two about flying a helicopter ......

Glad to see you are still around VF
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 02:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom View Post
G'day GB...I have in the JetBanger @ 16,000' ISA +25 & the B3 easy hit the power pedal stop above 20,K' when it's ISA +30 with oodles of Ng left to to pull, bit like the old LongBox 1's
Welcome back, Steve. 👏
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 10:22
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Hoy GB, come-on Mate; She's got a service ceiling of 20,000' just like the Queen of the Sky the 47 has
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G'day NMHFM, Yaaar seems I'm a clean skin here, so insufficient experience to make such claims! I have no control of the numbers against my name, but I think I have posted a couple more than that me thinks Actually LTA can be a reality like the ole 206L1 had, even the 206A with the shorty tail-blades on a cold day! But LTE is a Pilot induced F.Up being that the driver is waaaaaay behind the aircraft &/or a lack of knowledge, or maybe a lack of sufficient dancing lessons
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Hi OD, thank You Brother & let's see? I am not the PIC here, just a newbie
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 23:41
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom View Post
Hoy GB, come-on Mate; She's got a service ceiling of 20,000' just like the Queen of the Sky the 47 has
True. But put a bit of weight in it and the max operating altitude comes down to 13,500' DA. Which at ISA +20, your bus is probably parked overnight higher than that!

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Old 3rd Jun 2019, 04:10
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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MayT....no ones gonna throw weight at those heights; no doors, no seats, no fuel (almost), no undies, full body shave....anything to shed grams

Oye GB.....Grass is Greener on my side of the fence, come on over for a Cleanser, there's a Mountin Lassie here awaiting to meet Ya!
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 00:16
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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I'm wondering if being light was a contributing factor here? I'm sure many of us would think downwind departures and arrivals are going to be fine if there's oodles of surplus power but if heavier we would keep things into wind and keep the IAS up?

I don't know the exact geography here, what's the explanation for all that manoeuvring?
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