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CALIFORNIA FIRES

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CALIFORNIA FIRES

Old 20th Nov 2018, 16:01
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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„Outstanding.... team effort“. I‘m pretty sure we will see them at the following „Heros of the year“ award.������
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 17:12
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent work and coordination!
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 19:05
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I shall sound like a spoil sport here.....when you show up with your suitcases and dogs.....it is a more a transport than a rescue.

Smoke does not qualify as Cloud....but nipping along in the edge of the smoke columns when there was a clear air route to the landing spot makes me wonder about all those other aircraft zipping about.

Overall....a good effort....but Hero Badges....errr.....perhaps not.

When you melt your chin bubbles due to the heat....that is a close call.

Gordy is pretty low key....but he and another Pilot in a second machine pulled off a real rescue a while back.

Perhaps he might relate his account of that event....where some fire fighters were in risk of being over run by a fast moving fire.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 21:09
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I was worrying about guy wires and earth wires attached to those structures at the car park area!
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 09:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post

Gordy is pretty low key....but he and another Pilot in a second machine pulled off a real rescue a while back.
Ahh the King fire 4 years ago, remember it well, Gary Dahlen was the other pilot, I was just on the Hirz fire with him a few months back. You can see the twelve guys running on the left. They were in a bad place, deployed their shelters, Gary got them running before the fire hit them, and I guided them 2 miles running through trails and logging roads to where we could get them picked up.



There were numerous people picked up on the Carr fire and the Camp fire, we don't have cameras and record it all though.....
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 11:13
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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"Overall....a good effort....but Hero Badges....errr.....perhaps not."

I agree with SASless

I have a high threshold of what constitutes a Hero.
First, only the person who's life was in imminent danger can apply the Hero label.
Second, you need to have put your life in actual danger, with a serious risk of dying or being seriously injured whilst saving someone in imminent danger
If neither the victim, nor the rescuer were potentially going to die or be seriously injured in the very near future, then my definition of hero hasn't been met.
True Heroism is being washed out by giving participation trophies
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 11:19
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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There's a fine line between routine and heroic.

My accomplishments barely lift the needle off the peg but FWIW I was soiling myself watching that first landing attempt, then leaned back with a yawn when they touched down on the spur of the ridge.

Didn't see any luggage, just a couple of people and their pets with either bad luck or poor decision making skills.
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 11:30
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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In Gordy's photo....the dust trail rising behind the running firefighters tells me they were in a hurry!

Those kind of folk are used to being very close and personal with Wild Fires....and too often pay a steep price for doing so.

Once you undergo Fire Shelter Training...and crawl into that flimsy bit of kit....and contemplate what it would be like to have a Fire burn over you.....NO THANKS!

Riding in a helicopter even with the likes of Gordy and myself is the far better option!

First Link tells of the loss of Nineteen Firefighters who deployed their Shelters during the Yarnell Fire.

https://nationalpost.com/news/elite-...from-firestorm






Last edited by SASless; 21st Nov 2018 at 11:43.
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 12:34
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Have been in a similar situation many moons back.

Scooped a whole bunch off the side of a hill in Australia. Single Pilot with a B205 and answered the call for help.

Did a head count after we landed - 23. No seats so it was a bit easier and nobody complained!

Everyone is a bit more savvy these days!
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 15:00
  #30 (permalink)  
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Also agree that is far from being a heroic mission. I am sure the crew would not claim for it either, but still a good axample of excellent CRM and a good job. That type of "resues" are very common in those situations ... floods, and so on ... is not that people is at a great risk but still they need a hand (lift, hoist or what ever...) to improve a bit their poor situation ...
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 06:30
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Completely agree with comment about excellent CRM
no, that was conversational operating and they were enormously lucky not to crash on the first approach or the subsequent go around. Did you hear any positive acknowledgement of the obstacles? Large tower with masts, two large aerials with no talk about their stays, no mention of the FOD in the one o'clock that was looking to get airborne. Do people not use clock code and distances to specify targets/threats/landing areas?

Anyone hear any considerations for OEI? Flyaway/escape route etc? Yes, I know they were in a 139 but they didn't mention the PI at all.

Fortunately the outcome was good but we could easily have been looking at an accident there.
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 07:50
  #32 (permalink)  
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Every mission has some aspects that could have been improved when analized once finished, but I still think CRM was good. Different thing is mission planning and decission making....Agree that the FOD moving while landing just about to fly away is scary the say the least....
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 08:09
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
no, that was conversational operating and they were enormously lucky not to crash on the first approach or the subsequent go around. Did you hear any positive acknowledgement of the obstacles? Large tower with masts, two large aerials with no talk about their stays, no mention of the FOD in the one o'clock that was looking to get airborne. Do people not use clock code and distances to specify targets/threats/landing areas?

Anyone hear any considerations for OEI? Flyaway/escape route etc? Yes, I know they were in a 139 but they didn't mention the PI at all.

Fortunately the outcome was good but we could easily have been looking at an accident there.

AW139 2up or 5 and two dogs low fuel donít think OEI would have been a problem.
You donít have to operate to PC1 or 2 just because itís a ME
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 12:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I know how powerful the 139 is but it would still be worth mentioning an escape route since you need to get to 50 kts to be safe OEI iaw the QRH.

Did they do any 'Before-Landing Checks'? didn't hear them or a 150'call.....lots of chat about fuel and how things were either getting 'ugly' or weren't going to be 'pretty' but nothing that sounded like a professional helicopter crew going about their business.
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 14:30
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Tough crowd
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 14:53
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Crab,

Seems some gaps in the video....is it possible some of the dialogue got edited out in the interest of brevity?

Also...some outfits use a Silent Checklist and Hand Signals to indicate completion with no verbal comment needed unless something is other than it is supposed to be in the Checklist.

You might accept others might just do things differently than the way you do....and not be any less professional.
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 15:06
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Seems some gaps in the video....is it possible some of the dialogue got edited out in the interest of brevity?
Possible but the crucial parts seem continuous.

As for silent checklist and hand signals - nothing in the 139 RFM or FCOM for those...........

It's not my way or the highway but nothing they did or said filled me with confidence.....just sayin'

Celebrating mediocrity just drives standards further downwards.
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 15:19
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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SASless; the scenario has changed since we hung up our headsets. You now have to spend hours rattling off checklists whilst people die.
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 16:01
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Crab,

Did I miss something?

Last time I looked RFM's were printed on Paper using Ink....not chiseled in stone.

Also....not every word in the RFM carries the weight of Law.

When a Manufacturer in Italy can dictate Operator procedures in California....you let me know will you!
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Old 22nd Nov 2018, 16:16
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Yes, I know how powerful the 139 is but it would still be worth mentioning an escape route since you need to get to 50 kts to be safe OEI iaw the QRH.
I know I shouldn't get involved in these sorts of squabbles; however, I've had a couple of glasses of wine and I'm struggling to see why a helicopter, which I imagine is more than capable of a OEI, outside ground effect hover with just 2 crew on board, would need to get to 50kts before being considered 'safe OEI', does the quick reference handbook really state that without any caveats Crab?
Cheers
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