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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 28th Oct 2018, 16:40
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Nige321......If there was a "Like" Button here at PPRuNe....I would be using it right now in response to your Post!
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 16:55
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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mel
Perfectly normal. The technique was originally intended for use from a restricted area where category "A" performance was required - ie land or fly away from a single engine failure. The reversing element was to allow the pilot to retain sight of the pad through the chin window as he climbed to the critical height from which he could dive on speed and fly away if an engine failed. Prior to that point a descent onto the still visible pad is accomplished on the remaining engine.
That's all well and good in catering for a loss of a power unit when you have two engines, however it increases the time the tail rotor is under high stresses and there is only one tail rotor!
Looks like it backed out into a tail wind too...?

Last edited by chopjock; 29th Oct 2018 at 11:02.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 17:08
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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comparison 139 confined area t/o profile. Sorry if image quality poor.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 17:11
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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A tragic incident indeed and only a proper investigation will shed light on what happened. Looking at the crash site and given I think the wind was north, north westerly on that day. It looks like a down wind transition? Another hole in the cheese maybe.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 17:57
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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CatA/Class1/PerfA - whatever itís called -as we all know here - any performance figures are invalid if you have a tailwind.
condolances to all
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 18:03
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dingo9 View Post
A tragic incident indeed and only a proper investigation will shed light on what happened. Looking at the crash site and given I think the wind was north, north westerly on that day. It looks like a down wind transition? Another hole in the cheese maybe.
Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 18:15
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Originally Posted by OvertHawk View Post
Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)
very true. Or there was a considerable period of fight for control and then all bets are off where they would end up.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 18:16
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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If the alleged is true and this new aircraft did suffer a tail rotor failure of sorts, it begs the question, was this a material failure or maintenance?
T/O from the stadium will confuse the wind direction and only when clearing the bowl would the true wind affect the a/c.
Whatever - an alleged TRF at a critical height (probably inside this twins dead mans curve, will almost certainly result in bad news.
RiP to all souls onboard.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 18:30
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OvertHawk View Post
Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)
No I think you are confused. The video shows the helicopter backing up into wind with nose pointing down wind...

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Old 28th Oct 2018, 18:57
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 18:59
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
No I think you are confused. The video shows the helicopter backing up into wind with nose pointing down wind...
Inside a stadium (bowl) the wind direction can be unrelated to what is reported outside.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:01
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks
Dump the collective, engines off, cushion landing, im sure someone thinks its possible, maybe if you know its coming.

In reality, startle effect, low level, at night, its unimaginable..
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:04
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks
Inside a stadium? Make sure your loved ones have your insurance details and hope that it's your lucky day.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:12
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks
Lower collective to cancel torque effect thereby preventing spin. Push nose down to gain forward airspeed, generally, above 70kts will keep enough of an airflow over the airframe to keep it straight and then feed collective back in to arrest rate of decent. Find suitable landing site, perform engine off landing.
To do all that, a considerable amount of height is required (500' plus but sure someone cleverer than me will correct) which, on current knowledge, wasn't there, and of course, there is the pilot reaction time to factor in, my experience is simulator based where I either knew it was coming or was highly tuned to something was coming.
High power (collective) setting, 200' or so and no/little airspeed.....that would be a challenge, even if you knew it was coming.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:13
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post


Inside a stadium (bowl) the wind direction can be unrelated to what is reported outside.
correct. But you need the wind in the transition. You transition above the stadium, ideally 100í + above the stadium. The wind here is significant and pretty true. On the day 15-20kts... 0kts in the stadium to an almost instant tailwind... uncomfortable at best, high AUM/power limited?
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:18
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the info chaps, so I assume this is an event you practice in your yearly Sims? Like we do with V1 cuts...but as you say you know what's coming and you know exactly how it will behave...different game in the real world
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:19
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No so far away in 1998, the East Midlands Police Air Support Unit helicopter suffered a fatality based on a flawed night departure procedure. as a result it had to put in placed a safe departure and arrival procedure for operations so that there were external references and means collision avoidance for departure and arrivals at night. The report can be found at:

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/euro...ely-2305-hours

It strikes me if you need to reverse before going into transition, then departing out of a football ground is not the best idea. Ironically the surrounding area has multiple suitable sites for a dedicated LCFC heliport, and also being ideal for a heliport for the Leicester Royal Infirmary which currently does not have a dedicated heliport. Likewise a westerly prevailing wind departure over the river and meadows would avoid overflight of congested areas.

Last edited by anchorhold; 28th Oct 2018 at 19:47.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:33
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Reverse before transition is a recommended profile for AW types. It's a good congested area profile based on OEI considerations but nothing can be written for drive failure (if this is a possible cause).
Yes it would be safer to depart from a great long runway free of obstacles but it's a helicopter. That's what they do.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:55
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Would imagine that stadium has good cctv coverage so the chain of events is properly recorded.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 20:08
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
Thanks for the info chaps, so I assume this is an event you practice in your yearly Sims? Like we do with V1 cuts...but as you say you know what's coming and you know exactly how it will behave...different game in the real world
On that type, anti-torque system failures would form part of initial and recurrent training. But if this was indeed an anti-torque failure, this particular situation would not only require great skill, but also a huge amount of luck to manage successfully. The pilots would have found themselves in a grave situation, at night, in a congested environment, and with no height or airspeed. It doesn’t get much worse. The football field itself may have been the only safe environment to land onto, being lit, flat and obstacle-free. But I doubt if the crew were in a position to make that decision.

I don‘t understand how either a vertical profile or take-off from a heliport have any bearing here. Anti-torque failure just after TDP from a heliport in a congested environment at night. Seriously, what are you chances?

Condolences to family, friends and colleagues. What a terrible accident.
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