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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 30th Oct 2018, 19:02
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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My flying career included virtually no experience of helicopters. I have followed this thread from the beginning. I cannot remember in the various lists of possible causes any suggestion of deliberate criminal action. Presumably, while the thought may not occur to Ppruners, there is an automatic forensic angle to the AAIB investigations.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 19:12
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by theavionicsbloke
From what appears to be original cctv footage released today..
The video of the departure taken from inside the stadium is pretty clear it didn't hit the structure of the building...
Anyway, what strikes me unusual is the puff of smoke from the engine as the rotor starts to turn....and vertical climb performance seems to deteriorate just before directional control is lost. Uncontained engine failure that severs the TR drive shaft?
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 19:19
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Barcli
I am not convinced - given the direction of the downwash..... delamination of TR ?
Watch it again carefully, there’s loads of them...
Look at 1:02
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 19:21
  #284 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Pittsextra
Of course but actually you will struggle to find an example where the early rumour differs significantly in terms of the headline to the multi year final report...

Glasgow ran out of fuel...Shoreham pilot...North Sea EC225 let those down wearing big boy pants...etc
The point is, any formal investigation of a tragic and high profile accident like this is going to take more than a couple of days. Some here seem to want an instant answer.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 20:14
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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There were remarks from a Bt Sport technician whom mentions he heard a definite ‘grinding’ noise - the sort you hear when accidentally selecting reverse......
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 20:16
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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I've just watched the video - it seems that something clearly wasn't right with that tail rotor.

Anyway, scary that I was dealing with Eric professionally by e-mail not too many months ago. RIP to all.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 20:23
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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Extraneous Noise?

Originally Posted by EESDL
There were remarks from a Bt Sport technician whom mentions he heard a definite ‘grinding’ noise - the sort you hear when accidentally selecting reverse......
Could it have been a nearby car accidentally selecting reverse?
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 20:35
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nige321
It's an insect lit by the stadium lights, I get them on my CCTV daily...
Yes, I'm sure you're right looking at it again. But this new clip does seem to go against the reports of odd noises or that the engine 'went quiet' before impact. The engine/rotor noise seems pretty constant....
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 20:40
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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Just had a quick scan on YouTube to find some previous AW109/AW169s departures from the stadium:

I found this one:

Although we shouldn't be making comparisons based on one video (especially as optical illusions could have their part too), the accident video shows the helicopter hovering for considerabably longer than the video above and it looks higher too.

Purely a very, very, very brief observation.

Last edited by tomahawk98; 30th Oct 2018 at 20:42. Reason: Added AW169 (accident a/c)
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 20:57
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque


Some here seem to want an instant answer.
in the interest of further safety, thats not a bad thing is it?
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 21:23
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by anchorhold
As we reach the end of day three of the AAIB investigation, the fact their are no ADs and the aircraft type has not been grounded suggests the following.

(a) There is no reason to suspect that the aircraft was in anyway defective.
(b) The primary causal factor is a result of the aircraft sustaining damage during flight as a result with contact with a structure or other object.
(c) If not (b) then due to the handling of the aircraft by the pilot in command, pax or both, either in error or intentionally.
That is an irresponsible thing to post.
We for sure do not know a, but one can guess at anything. For b, primary causal factor is TBD. C. Maybe, and maybe not, but Where Are You Getting Intentionally From? That, sir (or madam) is utterly Irresponsible.

Dear members of the media who may wander by here, none of that which anchor posted is supported by information, given the lack of same.

Anchor: you are jumping the gun a bit there. I'd recommend dropping the short attention span act and waiting for the first (of many) reports. They'll be arriving in due course. Whether or not your guesses are close, or far, from the actuality will in time be shown.
Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
in the interest of further safety, thats not a bad thing is it?
It is a bad thing if misinformation is spread by an instant, and wrong, answer. That's why fast isn't a good metric unless an early indication prompts the AIIB to issue an alert. Not jumping the gun is the AIIB being responsible, and doing their duty.

Regarding your idea of hitting something on the way in: what evidence are you pointing to that prompted that speculation?

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 30th Oct 2018 at 21:34.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 21:32
  #292 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
That is an irresponsible thing to post.
We for sure do not know a, but one can guess at anything. For b, primary causal factor is TBD. C. Maybe, but Where Are You Getting Intentionally From?
Irresponsible.
Dear members of the media who may wander by here, none of that which anchor posted is supported by information, given the lack of same.

Anchor: you are jumping the gun a bit there. I'd recommend dropping the short attention span act and waiting for the first (of many) reports. They'll be arriving in due course.
Fortunately the reports will be based on professional examination of evidence, not a need to react to poorly motivated baseless trolling.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 21:36
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aox
Fortunately the reports will be based on professional examination of evidence, not a need to react to poorly motivated baseless trolling.
What got me to respond was the insinuation of intentionality. I do not feel that such ought to be left unchallenged. That, and me being aware of who may scan this site for tidbits to throw into a news story.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 21:57
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

Regarding your idea of hitting something on the way in: what evidence are you pointing to that prompted that speculation?
hmmm i dunno...a spiralling out of control helicopter that appears to not hit a thing on its departure??? something somewhere had to have happened. But again, I digress, could have just as easily been a sleepy mechanic not torquing the bolts correctly. I see lots of things on the pictures and videos that pique my interest. the could haves that may turn into the cause.
If you're so upset about musings by others, leave the thread and don't come back. clearly you're drawn here for a reason though....is it to try and start fights?

The accident investigators aren't special by any means either. they cast a wide net, rule out things as they go along in a structured way. Nothing different going on here at all except it's not so structured. They just put it onto a nice dossier in the end and publish it.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 22:12
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rattle
Question from a PPL(H). Would autopilot ever be engaged on this sort of departure? At the top of the reverse climb? If there's a malfunction, does the computer compensate? How quickly can you disengage? Would it be used to allow the night blindness to settle having climbed out of a bowl lit for TV cameras into a night sky? It doesn't look sadly as there was ANY time to do anything but still interested to know the procedure for such eventualities.
About your question regarding blindness (and/or disorientation ?)

As crab said, the pilot manages manually in attitude mode the Cat A take-off till the limits (height and IAS) to engage the modes are reached.

Anyway if you find yourself very early in deep disorientation troubles, WLVL is an attitude function that will level your wings and bring your pitch 6 degrees up.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 22:12
  #296 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
What got me to respond was the insinuation of intentionality. I do not feel that such ought to be left unchallenged. That, and me being aware of who may scan this site for tidbits to throw into a news story.
​​​​​​To clarify, in case my post can be seen by anyone as any way ambiguous, I entirely agree with you.

Despite a couple of videos showing some aspects of the event pretty clearly, we still have people floating conjectures at odds with observable fact, such as fictitious collision with the stadium structure. If they haven't looked at the video themselves, they could at least believe those who have.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 22:23
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Possible pilot disorientation (nose up, black sky), then over-pitching?
I saw a careful professional departure, with very good handling skills and no evidence of over pitching or disorientation. What did pique my interest on that last video was the moment of rotation after the vertical climb. A the moment the nose is pitched downward (and again, it was not overpitched or overcontrolled, but rather the transition initiated by someone with experience), there appeared the beginning of a right yaw that was briefly stopped after which the aircraft again accelerated the yaw to the right. Rate of descent afterward seemed high as well, higher than you'd expect from bottoming the collective to reduce the uncontrolled yaw. Definitely looking forward to the AAIB preliminary. Anybody know if the AW169 has real-time HUMS or how ofter it is downloaded?
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 22:35
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nige321
It's worth reading the article, even if it is the Sun...
I have to agree with a quote from the Sun article.
I have a sequence of photos taken by me of a recent departure of this helicopter flown by the same crew.
The photos show the helicopter on the ground in the centre circle. Once the passengers have boarded the aircraft enters a low hover and turns 180 degrees, it then moves forward to the 18 yard line in a forward hover then moves backwards and upwards until it clears the stadium roof then transitions forward while climbing and off it goes.
However the departure shown in the Sun video is totally different to this, it seems to climb to a much greater height way above the stadium roof before making a turn.
This is purely my observation and the different departure technique may be for various operational reasons not to mention the wind direction but having seen this helicopter take off from the pitch on many occasions, I have never seen this departure technique used before from this location.


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Old 30th Oct 2018, 22:50
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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As Malabo said this was a well flown departure all the way and one which I would expect from a professional pilot with experience. On this type of departure profile (confined area) flown from the RH seat you would yaw the a/c left to keep visual with the departure and possibly reject point in your chin bubble window. At TDP you would then yaw back to the right (30°) or so to straighten up. That's the procedure and that's what it looked like to me.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 01:03
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Thai opponents and a recent claim in the courts.

While reading the various press details about business opponents in Thailand, it reminded me of a crash in 2004 where a wealthy buisnessman with Russian connections died after the A109 he was in burst into flames and crashed while approaching Bournemouth Airport in 2004. Even the local MP was sceptical about the crash findings at the time.

The coroner confirmed that he was aware of the death threats against the businessman Mr Curtis who was the CEO of Menatep which was owned by the Russian oil company Yukos. Mr Curtis died along with his pilot.
The coroner stated at the time - "that it had all the ingredients of an espionage thriller!” There was a mention of a Russian connection at the time of the crash.
https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...icopter_crash/

Re the press reports about the Thai businessman having opponents in Thailand. I noted in the article shown below, it reveals that last month a Thai court threw out a $430 million claim by the Airports of Thailand (AOT) regarding unpaid revenues by the Thai company King Power.
With the large amounts of involved, and the further mentions of opponents in Thailand, I wondered if anyone had a grudge against the chairman or his family?
https://www.today.ng/news/world/thai...y-owner-154035

More on the recent Thai court case.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/thailands...l?guccounter=1
Quote: "The license was secured from the state-owned Airports of Thailand (AOT) in 2006, after years of lobbying.
It gifts King Power the captive market of the near 40 million people expected to visit the country this year, many of whom trawl through its duty-free stores at Thailand's international airports or downtown mega-malls in Bangkok and Pattaya. Last month a court rejected an attempt to sue King Power for hundreds of millions of dollars in unpaid revenue to AoT.
That case was a rare pot shot by King Power's enemies. But without the shield provided by Vichai, the family could be vulnerable to avaricious rivals and moves to break up their monopoly.
"King Power's most important business is based on a monopolistic concessionary right granted by the government," explained Pavida Pananond, an academic at Thammasat Business School told AFP.
"That suggests the political nature of the business and Khun (honorific) Vichai's political and business clout.”
Whether his successors "move away from the 'know-who' to the 'know-how'" of the business will define how they parry potential competition, she said."

Other commentators have also discussed the Thai opponents, and the vast amounts of money involved.
https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordp...ag/king-power/

Maybe one for the intelligence services, as the pilot was very experienced, and the aircraft was only two years old..
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