Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...
I think it's absolutely unbelieveable that some people are slagging off the special forces for undertaking realistic training in realistic conditions. Their mandate covers all sorts of scenarios the best of us can hardly imagine, but clearly some here aren't anywhere near that imaginative.
The ability to insert or extract a team in any and all weather (or smoke and dust) is clearly of extreme interest to such people and I for one am glad they are doing it and not constrained by snowflakes and silly post-industrial age H & S nonsense.
Anyone who imagines this sort of thing is done unthinkingly and ad-hoc without briefing or preparation is living in a vacuum. Maybe one day they'll be the ones locked in a box and need someone with these skills to get them out ad-hoc and without much briefing and preparation, and would then be damn glad the prep and practice had been done elsewhere...
The ability to insert or extract a team in any and all weather (or smoke and dust) is clearly of extreme interest to such people and I for one am glad they are doing it and not constrained by snowflakes and silly post-industrial age H & S nonsense.
Anyone who imagines this sort of thing is done unthinkingly and ad-hoc without briefing or preparation is living in a vacuum. Maybe one day they'll be the ones locked in a box and need someone with these skills to get them out ad-hoc and without much briefing and preparation, and would then be damn glad the prep and practice had been done elsewhere...
I think it's absolutely unbelieveable that some people are slagging off the special forces for undertaking realistic training in realistic conditions. Their mandate covers all sorts of scenarios the best of us can hardly imagine, but clearly some here aren't anywhere near that imaginative.
The ability to insert or extract a team in any and all weather (or smoke and dust) is clearly of extreme interest to such people and I for one am glad they are doing it and not constrained by snowflakes and silly post-industrial age H & S nonsense.
Anyone who imagines this sort of thing is done unthinkingly and ad-hoc without briefing or preparation is living in a vacuum. Maybe one day they'll be the ones locked in a box and need someone with these skills to get them out ad-hoc and without much briefing and preparation, and would then be damn glad the prep and practice had been done elsewhere...
The ability to insert or extract a team in any and all weather (or smoke and dust) is clearly of extreme interest to such people and I for one am glad they are doing it and not constrained by snowflakes and silly post-industrial age H & S nonsense.
Anyone who imagines this sort of thing is done unthinkingly and ad-hoc without briefing or preparation is living in a vacuum. Maybe one day they'll be the ones locked in a box and need someone with these skills to get them out ad-hoc and without much briefing and preparation, and would then be damn glad the prep and practice had been done elsewhere...
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There is no road response on the TT because the road is being used for the race. That's why they need a helicopter....
The rules go out of the window for the purpose of saving life as far as I am concerned.
The rules go out of the window for the purpose of saving life as far as I am concerned.
So it was you then crab?
DB - you do need a bit of a reality check with regard to what was being done here - you have absolutely no idea what task they were on.
HEMS might not be allowed to do this but UKSAR operate under EASA rules, under CAP 999 and they would be allowed to operate like this to save life! However, I'm with Paco and, if you are the only asset, and you have the ability and training to mitigate the risk, then save lives if it is possible.
I, like many SAR pilots, have had to turn down jobs or turn back because the rescue was simply too dangerous but a straightforward hovertaxy in cloud with decent references and an escape route/IF option really isn't that risky.
The rules go out of the window for the purpose of saving life as far as I am concerned.
Crab hits the nail on the head - there is a limit. It may be more than the limit on civilian systems, but there is a limit, and rules, and we stick to them
As for this flight, we will never know, nor due the nature of the work should we.
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All the crews I have been with have been perfectly happy, and have said so, including when going under wires etc. I'm glad you've never been in my cab. I know my limits and the risks involved. If they happen to be higher (or lower?) than other peoples' then so be it. I don't see a particular risk with the Dauphin. Meat and drink to anyone who has ever been in N Ireland.
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Paco there is no doubt you have skills otherwise you would not have survived. However, JSP318 also has rules as you well know and after a crew wiped themselves out in Battus, responding to a medivac in ****e conditions, the rules were more rigidly applied. Civilian SAR rules also would prevent flight in fog below MSA. Medical missions require maturity on the part of the flight crew. Certainly I would never risk my life, let alone the crew, for a motorcycle racer who has voluntarily taken excessive risks. I write this as an relatively experienced HEMS pilot and a motorcyclist.
Remember Operation Overlord was delayed until the weather improved! The AAC lost a number of aircraft and crews in BAOR due to flight in inappropriate weather. On my pilots course and throughout my training and service no one ever suggested flight in fog, close to the ground, was required or a good idea.
Those of you advocating helicopter flight in fog close to the ground need close supervision and to be reminded to read the rules.
Finally, the more seriously injured the patients are, the chances of survival are reduced. Should we risk 3 or 4 lives for the sake of 1 which may not survive anyway? For anyone who has conducted intense HEMS operations (and I mean several jobs every working day), they will recognise this as the true paradox of HEMS! At the end of the working day I want to go home. Compliance with the rules and limits is the foundation of safety. Breach them at your own peril and good luck to your loved ones if you pile in while breaking rules or breaching limits because the Insurance Company will exploit your enthusiasm to your detriment.
Remember Operation Overlord was delayed until the weather improved! The AAC lost a number of aircraft and crews in BAOR due to flight in inappropriate weather. On my pilots course and throughout my training and service no one ever suggested flight in fog, close to the ground, was required or a good idea.
Those of you advocating helicopter flight in fog close to the ground need close supervision and to be reminded to read the rules.
Finally, the more seriously injured the patients are, the chances of survival are reduced. Should we risk 3 or 4 lives for the sake of 1 which may not survive anyway? For anyone who has conducted intense HEMS operations (and I mean several jobs every working day), they will recognise this as the true paradox of HEMS! At the end of the working day I want to go home. Compliance with the rules and limits is the foundation of safety. Breach them at your own peril and good luck to your loved ones if you pile in while breaking rules or breaching limits because the Insurance Company will exploit your enthusiasm to your detriment.
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Double bogey
this wasn’t hems!!!
if it was the SAS (which the colour /type of aircraft suggest They tend to do the opposite and when they are finished HEMS or Medevac take over
if if I wanted some help from SF I would be thankful they practiced in bad weather conditions before carrying my troop out
this wasn’t hems!!!
if it was the SAS (which the colour /type of aircraft suggest They tend to do the opposite and when they are finished HEMS or Medevac take over
if if I wanted some help from SF I would be thankful they practiced in bad weather conditions before carrying my troop out
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I have said my piece. If some of you want to fly in fog........enjoy! You all know it’s dangerous, below limits and will invalidate your insurance............good luck!
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The Dauphin caused a car carrying a family to stop unexpectedly on a narrow road in poor visibility and a multi-vehicle RTC was a tangible risk of the helicopter's low level manoeuvre. We don't know the circumstances of the flight or the risk-benefit of this particular mission, but an inquest is not the best place to justify those decisions.
Rules....not one of them is etched in stone!
Look carefully at the video and look for visual cues behind the aircraft.
Theres a lot of green under the gray.
Look carefully at the video and look for visual cues behind the aircraft.
Theres a lot of green under the gray.
Oh dear DB - I would love to see you on your high horse trying to complete a mission with a suddenly lowering cloudbase (and you know that happens in the hills and can be very localised) with not enough fuel or suitable weather for an IF abort (because of the task) - if it takes a few hundred yards of careful hovertaxying to get VMC the other side (where the terrain doesn't permit a safe 180 or a precautionary landing) what would you do?
You can't see what the crew are looking at - they are more than well trained enough to assess letterbox situations and what terrain and weather to expect on the other side.
BTW 1 - JSP318 is so last century and these boys are flying a twin-engine, fully IFR capable aircraft with a good AP system - not an unstabilised Gazelle like in BATUS.
BTW 2 - straight from CAP999
You can't see what the crew are looking at - they are more than well trained enough to assess letterbox situations and what terrain and weather to expect on the other side.
BTW 1 - JSP318 is so last century and these boys are flying a twin-engine, fully IFR capable aircraft with a good AP system - not an unstabilised Gazelle like in BATUS.
BTW 2 - straight from CAP999
Operating minima for the dispatch and continuation of a SAR operational flight are at the discretion of the aircraft commander. However, he is to consider the urgency of the task, crew and aircraft capability and the requirement to recover the aircraft safely
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How do I know who is badly injured and is or is not likely to survive? Even if I was medically qualified I'm not on the scene and in a position to judge. My job is (or was) to do the best I possibly can to assist based on the advice of the guys getting their boots dirty. And I will do that up to my own personal limits, which may or may not coincide with anybody else's. None of us says "Oh goody, here's fog, let's go fly!" But if it comes across our path, we should make the best judgment we can.
A safety point for those who have not been there - the helicopter creates its own bad weather - if you are forced to stop, and turn round you will find that the air has been stirrred up behind you to make your trip home likely worse, so the go decision should not be taken lightly.
A safety point for those who have not been there - the helicopter creates its own bad weather - if you are forced to stop, and turn round you will find that the air has been stirrred up behind you to make your trip home likely worse, so the go decision should not be taken lightly.
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Crab.....I have completed a few HEMS missions......almost 3,500 of them. Certainly enough to have experienced most of what the weather can upchuck at you. As I posted earlier, I have made a similar mistake....but I see it only as that. A mistake and learned from it!
there are rules and there are limits. For CIVSAR I bow to CRABS greater knowledge but the principles remain the same. Certainly in HEMS we should strive to apply them. My Ambulance Ops Director once told me not to take any risks with his crews. I was impressed by his guidance and told him so. He replied that he had given me the same speech that he gave all his Ambulance drivers on qualification. He saw the helicopter as just another ambulance and he was right.
PACO the answer is “you don’t know” However, after you have exploited your HEMS alleviation’s to the maximum, almost taken a car bonnet through the disc and risked everything......only to discover a broken ankle to some such other minor scrape.....you learn to deploy your greater judgement! As you don’t seem to understand this I am guessing you have dipped your toe in HEMS and not really served your time. For the rest of us we deploy ourselves professionally and within our alleviation’s. And I want to be clear.....the HEMS rules provide more than enough scope to get into trouble. Performance alleviation’s, no safe forced landing AND flight in reduced weather. Only a start staring fool would elect to apply his own personal lower limits. As such Paco, I have to say you preach utter bollocks that has no place in modern HEMS operations if longevity interests you at all.
there are rules and there are limits. For CIVSAR I bow to CRABS greater knowledge but the principles remain the same. Certainly in HEMS we should strive to apply them. My Ambulance Ops Director once told me not to take any risks with his crews. I was impressed by his guidance and told him so. He replied that he had given me the same speech that he gave all his Ambulance drivers on qualification. He saw the helicopter as just another ambulance and he was right.
PACO the answer is “you don’t know” However, after you have exploited your HEMS alleviation’s to the maximum, almost taken a car bonnet through the disc and risked everything......only to discover a broken ankle to some such other minor scrape.....you learn to deploy your greater judgement! As you don’t seem to understand this I am guessing you have dipped your toe in HEMS and not really served your time. For the rest of us we deploy ourselves professionally and within our alleviation’s. And I want to be clear.....the HEMS rules provide more than enough scope to get into trouble. Performance alleviation’s, no safe forced landing AND flight in reduced weather. Only a start staring fool would elect to apply his own personal lower limits. As such Paco, I have to say you preach utter bollocks that has no place in modern HEMS operations if longevity interests you at all.
I wasn't going to comment on this thread but I can't believe you wrote that. I'd certainly hope that anyone reading what you've written disagrees. Usually I agree with your offerings to PPRuNe but to say you'd risk the lives of others in the back of your helicopter to save a life? Is there actually a need? You only have to look at the accident stats in USA where the HEMS aircraft has crashed in poor conditions. If it's not safe or sensible to launch, then you don't launch. To say otherwise, in my personal opinion, is maybe a bit too bold.
edited to add that i'm referring not to Mil ops as I have zero idea about such things, but UK HEMS?
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I don't know that there's a need or not, and any such decision would have to be in agreement with the team. We have to draw a line somewhere. If I fly for a company I fly up to the limits of their ops manual and/or whatever Air Navigation order is valid at the time (one of the best compliments I ever got was from Chalky White who said that I flew exactly down the line that JCB wanted). BUT, there is a clause in the rules that says they can be broken for the purpose of saving life - which I will make use of a) if I have to and b) if it's within my own capabilities. If the ambulance chief says don't mess with his crews, fine - it's his money and pilots are only in charge up till the point where the trip becomes illegal or unsafe. But I also can't believe some of the garbage that is being spouted by some of the professionally outraged.
"If it's not safe or sensible to launch, then you don't launch." Of course - I haven't said otherwise. But usually you don't know that until you have launched. That's when we have to exercise some professional judgment, which I seem to have done successfully for over 8700 accident free hours, and not just dipping my toe in. When did we start not even trying? I must have missed that one.
"If it's not safe or sensible to launch, then you don't launch." Of course - I haven't said otherwise. But usually you don't know that until you have launched. That's when we have to exercise some professional judgment, which I seem to have done successfully for over 8700 accident free hours, and not just dipping my toe in. When did we start not even trying? I must have missed that one.
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My Ambulance Ops Director once told me not to take any risks with his crews. I was impressed by his guidance and told him so. He replied that he had given me the same speech that he gave all his Ambulance drivers on qualification. He saw the helicopter as just another ambulance and he was right.
Folks were dying waiting on ground transport long before the Helicopter was invented.....and will continue to do so when the Helicopter cannot get to them.
If you cannot get them back to the medical facility due to weather....if you land out or make an IFR recovery....you will call.....a Ground Ambulance to complete the transfer!
One might have 500ft at the airfield and a perfectly good alternate for IFR transition, but it’s only when you get into the mission that deteriorating conditions force your hand...
Personally, I’m a suck it and see merchant If the info is genuinely life threatening, not a “risk accessment chappy”
However, that being said, these guys train for serious **** day in and day out, and I know which face I’d rather see hover taxiing under the wires if my guts were hanging out....
Personally, I’m a suck it and see merchant If the info is genuinely life threatening, not a “risk accessment chappy”
However, that being said, these guys train for serious **** day in and day out, and I know which face I’d rather see hover taxiing under the wires if my guts were hanging out....