Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...
FFS - retain some perspective here - this wasn't a HEMS mission so all those arguments are irrelevant. BTW the advice of an ambulance manager who isn't a pilot really isn't pertinent - his job is to keep his medics safe , not make aviation judgements.
Second - they were not deliberately training in those conditions - if you have to get from A to B and you are limited on fuel, constrained by terrain and caught out temporarily by a very localised bit of weather - you do what they did, have a look - if it's not good enough you turn round (if you can) if it is good enough you carry on into the nicer weather.
Remember you can't see the conditions behind the car - ie where the aircraft is going - so you have no clue in your armchair what the crew could and could not see.
Anyone who has flown in that area knows how quickly the weather can go from epic to sh*te and back again within a few hundred metres.
the best aid you can have in those conditions is a line feature - it gives you a visual reference and helps your navigation, The worst thing they could have done is meander 'off-piste'. Anyway, anyone driving fast in those conditions is far more likely to cause an accident than the helicopter's presence.
Second - they were not deliberately training in those conditions - if you have to get from A to B and you are limited on fuel, constrained by terrain and caught out temporarily by a very localised bit of weather - you do what they did, have a look - if it's not good enough you turn round (if you can) if it is good enough you carry on into the nicer weather.
Remember you can't see the conditions behind the car - ie where the aircraft is going - so you have no clue in your armchair what the crew could and could not see.
Anyone who has flown in that area knows how quickly the weather can go from epic to sh*te and back again within a few hundred metres.
But I would question the judgement of doing in the proximity of a public road like that.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
FFS - retain some perspective here - this wasn't a HEMS mission so all those arguments are irrelevant. BTW the advice of an ambulance manager who isn't a pilot really isn't pertinent - his job is to keep his medics safe , not make aviation judgements.
Second - they were not deliberately training in those conditions - if you have to get from A to B and you are limited on fuel, constrained by terrain and caught out temporarily by a very localised bit of weather - you do what they did, have a look - if it's not good enough you turn round (if you can) if it is good enough you carry on into the nicer weather.
Remember you can't see the conditions behind the car - ie where the aircraft is going - so you have no clue in your armchair what the crew could and could not see.
Anyone who has flown in that area knows how quickly the weather can go from epic to sh*te and back again within a few hundred metres.
the best aid you can have in those conditions is a line feature - it gives you a visual reference and helps your navigation, The worst thing they could have done is meander 'off-piste'. Anyway, anyone driving fast in those conditions is far more likely to cause an accident than the helicopter's presence.
Second - they were not deliberately training in those conditions - if you have to get from A to B and you are limited on fuel, constrained by terrain and caught out temporarily by a very localised bit of weather - you do what they did, have a look - if it's not good enough you turn round (if you can) if it is good enough you carry on into the nicer weather.
Remember you can't see the conditions behind the car - ie where the aircraft is going - so you have no clue in your armchair what the crew could and could not see.
Anyone who has flown in that area knows how quickly the weather can go from epic to sh*te and back again within a few hundred metres.
the best aid you can have in those conditions is a line feature - it gives you a visual reference and helps your navigation, The worst thing they could have done is meander 'off-piste'. Anyway, anyone driving fast in those conditions is far more likely to cause an accident than the helicopter's presence.
After all the publicity this is getting I have no doubt the pilot in question will be having an interview without coffee not least from the authoriser and quite rightly so.
Why should the publicity make any difference? I have no doubt the crew reported the low flying below minima on their return and their reasons for doing so - that's what you have an in-brief for.
For the chain of command to react in a knee jerk fashion just because someone posted it on t'internet in the hope of making a few quid would be very disingenuous.
For the chain of command to react in a knee jerk fashion just because someone posted it on t'internet in the hope of making a few quid would be very disingenuous.
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This is awesome t'internet judge and jury at the very finest end of that spectrum. All of a judgement based on a small part of the evidence.
If you weren't there, you don't know.
I've been in the back, and front, (even at one point strapped to the outside, in a litter on a Souix) of military, and civil helicopters doing things "that needed done" for the job. Of course "needed" is a variable definition, but that's part of the fun, is it not?
Never, have I ever thought that if I was uncomfortable with what we were doing, would I keep quiet. I doubt that any (ok maybe one or two) posting on here know the crew, but lots of folk reading this know the ethos of the flight in the video.
The car driver reacts, and has time to verbalise his response, before the aircraft is identified in the video. Some of the "piss poor vis" comes from the limitations and performance of dash cam.
Even if, and it's a huge if, the circumstances are in fact as they look, where do you get the idea that anyone on board is not "on board" with what's going on?
The aircraft commander is almost certainly not arrogantly endangering the crew and aircraft, he's apparently part of a team, all of whom are apparently practising doing what needs practised for.
If you weren't there, you don't know.
I've been in the back, and front, (even at one point strapped to the outside, in a litter on a Souix) of military, and civil helicopters doing things "that needed done" for the job. Of course "needed" is a variable definition, but that's part of the fun, is it not?
Never, have I ever thought that if I was uncomfortable with what we were doing, would I keep quiet. I doubt that any (ok maybe one or two) posting on here know the crew, but lots of folk reading this know the ethos of the flight in the video.
The car driver reacts, and has time to verbalise his response, before the aircraft is identified in the video. Some of the "piss poor vis" comes from the limitations and performance of dash cam.
Even if, and it's a huge if, the circumstances are in fact as they look, where do you get the idea that anyone on board is not "on board" with what's going on?
The aircraft commander is almost certainly not arrogantly endangering the crew and aircraft, he's apparently part of a team, all of whom are apparently practising doing what needs practised for.
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Mightgem, Detmold cab into the ridge......I think 85 or 86.
Gazelle into a range post I think Saltau or Sennelager. Memory fades.
The “Sooty” incident....in good weather.
Gazelle in Battus attempting night casevac.
I am sure there are a few more.
Crab....your dismissal of the Ambulance Operations Directors guidance speaks volumes in respect of your lack of understanding on exactly how HEMS works. The Commander only makes the decision not to fly. The HEMS task can only be requested by Ambulance Operations. In addition, the Ambulance Service is the client. If the Director issues a directive we comply where we can.
Gazelle into a range post I think Saltau or Sennelager. Memory fades.
The “Sooty” incident....in good weather.
Gazelle in Battus attempting night casevac.
I am sure there are a few more.
Crab....your dismissal of the Ambulance Operations Directors guidance speaks volumes in respect of your lack of understanding on exactly how HEMS works. The Commander only makes the decision not to fly. The HEMS task can only be requested by Ambulance Operations. In addition, the Ambulance Service is the client. If the Director issues a directive we comply where we can.
I suspect that people who have day to day knowledge on this operation aren’t commenting on this subject but as an aside, hover taxiing in fog is an entirely different exercise from scud running i.e. flying in IMC below MSA. Ask anyone who is qualified to operate in an RVR below 400m how they get from the runway to dispersal. I do realise that will be in a rather more controlled environment than involved here.
Cheers
TeeS
Cheers
TeeS
DB - I have never claimed to be HEMs qualified or experienced but my comments about ambulance directors are far better informed than yours about this crew, their capabilities, their task and their particular situation.
I get that you are glorified ambulance driver in modern HEMS but don't confuse that with SAR or SF - different world entirely.
I get that you are glorified ambulance driver in modern HEMS but don't confuse that with SAR or SF - different world entirely.
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Air police, the fenestron is 10 feet off the deck. There’s a reason for that....the vis sucks. It’s aviation insanity and there is no justification to fly like this....ever. That’s not moral outrage. It’s common sense.
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Crab sorry mate....there is only one world. It’s the same for all of us. The lumpy bits bite. SAR, SF, HEMS, CHARTER, we have lost Rotorheads in all these disciplines in bad weather CFIT.
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Well, I can't see the surface, below the aircraft, as it's behind the wall, by an undetermined distance, but if you can ascertain that it's ten feet, then so be it.
Looks like more than ten feet to me.
How sure? I was in Detmold from May 79 to April 92, and I think we might have noticed.
Avoid imitations
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DB, Thanks for you reply to my P.M. and I understand where you're coming from. However, we've also lost crews in 100% VMC.
Having worked under "other" rules where the weather limits were written down as "at Captain's discretion", I've occasionally flown (not recently because I now fall under under more stringent rules), in extremely poor weather conditions. Sometimes an IFR recovery was out of the question and a hover taxy in very poor visibility was the only option, other than ditching the whole show in the sea. "Captain's discretion" means exactly that, obviously if you get it wrong you might pay the ultimate price. The crew involved in this instance had a better option, they could have landed on the ground, so presumably were happy enough to carry on with sufficient visual cues.
Is JSP 318 still valid, btw?
Having worked under "other" rules where the weather limits were written down as "at Captain's discretion", I've occasionally flown (not recently because I now fall under under more stringent rules), in extremely poor weather conditions. Sometimes an IFR recovery was out of the question and a hover taxy in very poor visibility was the only option, other than ditching the whole show in the sea. "Captain's discretion" means exactly that, obviously if you get it wrong you might pay the ultimate price. The crew involved in this instance had a better option, they could have landed on the ground, so presumably were happy enough to carry on with sufficient visual cues.
Is JSP 318 still valid, btw?
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“He replied that he had given me the same speech that he gave all his Ambulance drivers on qualification. He saw the helicopter as just another ambulance and he was right.”
“There are no circumstances acceptable EVER to fly in such a manner as to risk the safety of your aircraft or crew.”
Some commenters on this thread could have a useful second career as a civvy traffic warden.
“There are no circumstances acceptable EVER to fly in such a manner as to risk the safety of your aircraft or crew.”
Some commenters on this thread could have a useful second career as a civvy traffic warden.
Last edited by Clockwork Mouse; 4th Aug 2018 at 23:35.
Me thinks I may have encountered such weather on flights made together out of that Sunshine Holiday Capital in the Shetlands as we flogged to and from the Ninian Field in its early days.
In the time of Decca finding home was more by Braille than by Science.
Memory serves me that VMC Minima was lower than IMC.....something about clear of cloud (which Fog ain't it being a surface weather phenomenon and all).
For sure you could not see over the nose of the Helicopter and see anything but gray....requiring you to look down past your elbow to see anything Green.
All by the book of course!
In the time of Decca finding home was more by Braille than by Science.
Memory serves me that VMC Minima was lower than IMC.....something about clear of cloud (which Fog ain't it being a surface weather phenomenon and all).
For sure you could not see over the nose of the Helicopter and see anything but gray....requiring you to look down past your elbow to see anything Green.
All by the book of course!