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Sheer Bad Luck

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Sheer Bad Luck

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Old 7th Jun 2018, 11:21
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I'm afraid regional accents really shouldn't be allowed on the airwaves.....
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 11:25
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One reason why I refused to do private owners when I was a TRE.

I NEVER authorized, penned, or scribbled an Endorsement of any kind for any reason on any document or Logbook....relating to Autogyro's.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 11:41
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Quite right Crab Old Boy ....!!
Sas... very relieved to hear that .
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 12:35
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F##k Me!

He was having a really unlucky day. A quick snort of white nose candy, take off over weight and fly into known crap weather, well outside the pilot's limits. The aircraft was a good one, full IFR and a pleasure to fly. At least she was when I managed her a good few years ago.

I'm not sure if this belongs in Rotorheads, It strikes me the Darwin Awards thread in Jet Blast would be more appropriate.

SND
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 13:36
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Careful SND ...... there were traces which could be from way beforehand and not relevant to the flight .
However I would agree that it doesn’t look good .
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 14:38
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nigelh,

Fair enough, but in this world of drugs and alcohol testing for working pilots a trace from any time can be enough to drop a pilot into a huge amount of poo from an enormous height.(I failed years ago for opiates, the traces disappeared when I dropped poppy seed rolls from my diet at the suggestion of the testers) In this case perhaps, more an indication of attitude to the task in hand and life in general.

SND
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 15:15
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These days it's not so much the trace amounts that get people into trouble.
It is the vast amounts of grog that a trollied Captain has consumed before reporting for duty - if British Airways is anything to go by.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 17:19
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Originally Posted by nigelh View Post
Careful SND ...... there were traces which could be from way beforehand and not relevant to the flight .
However I would agree that it doesn’t look good .
I think that there is an argument that even if it was from before hand it is related to the flight.

It suggests that the individual had a "flexible" attitude to rules laid down by other people. Similarly the fact that he chose to take off significantly over the max weight of his helicopter is another such indication.

The earlier comments on this thread suggesting that there are owner pilots out there who a sensible and competent is certainly true. But there are also those who are not. I think that there are certain personality traits that allow people to become successful and wealthy that are not mutually compatible with being safe at the controls of a helicopter. The attitude to risk and rules for example and it applies to owners in general not just owner pilots.

I've seen one owner pushing his pilot to fly when it clearly was not safe or legal with the line "Do you think you'd even have a job at all if I had not taken a few risks and broken a few rules over the years to build my business?"

If people are successful enough to buy a helicopter it's because their risk taking and possibly rule breaking has paid off. This can instil a dangerous over confidence.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 17:31
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Similarly the fact that he chose to take off significantly over the max weight of his helicopter is another such indication.
What the difference between taking off at max weight and climbing out at max power, and taking off over weight and climbing out at max power? Surely the stresses will be the same on the airframe and gears etc? If you don't over torque / temp anything what's the issue?
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 17:48
  #30 (permalink)  

 
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The difference is whether the insurance is valid.....
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 18:30
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Originally Posted by OvertHawk View Post
If people are successful enough to buy a helicopter it's because their risk taking and possibly rule breaking has paid off. This can instil a dangerous over confidence.
That is a bit of a generalization, arrogance is something present in a broad range of people.
There are many ways to become successful.
Business owners are very good at managing risk, purely taking risk isn't a good strategy for getting ahead.
There are many, many private owners. Very few end up in a smoking hole with trace amounts of speed in the blood.
It's not that simple trying to put a large and varied demographic into one neat little box.
Personality traits are a leading factor in fatal accidents, it is something that applies to everyone both with thick and thin wallets.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 21:02
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Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
What the difference between taking off at max weight and climbing out at max power, and taking off over weight and climbing out at max power? Surely the stresses will be the same on the airframe and gears etc? If you don't over torque / temp anything what's the issue?
JESUS CHRIST! Another load of stupidity from chopcock! Please tell me you’re just taking the p###. An emergency overweight? The fact that the aircraft is designed around certain weights.

I flew about 600 hours on that particular airframe. One of those hours was on one engine. She was in fine fettle, but her performance was as limited as any 355F1 on one engine. Try it overweight and the one hour would have turned into a minute or so of regret before the landing site is forced on you.

I fired off at you on the IIMC thread about your idiotic pronouncements. Do me and rotary Aviation a favour, f#%# off and take up golf before someone thinks your stupidity is a great idea. I don’t know who taught you to fly, but I bet they’ll end up answering some stiff questions from AAIB and CAA during the preparation of your AAIB report.

SND
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 21:39
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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SND
The fact that the aircraft is designed around certain weights.
As you know, aircraft G forces change in flight, therefore aircraft weight changes in flight too (not mass). So to answer my earlier question "What's the difference between taking off at max weight and climbing out at max power, and taking off over weight and climbing out at max power?"
If you are climbing out at MCP you will be the same load/stress at what ever weight, right? Lighter = higher ROC, heavier = lower ROC. Too heavy = no ROC.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 21:52
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Chop jock

Why do you think helicopter manufacturers have a max take off weight ?
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 22:26
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Why do you think helicopter manufacturers have a max take off weight ?
Mostly structural limitations but also OEI and autorotation performance would be effected if too heavy. My comments were aimed at the structural limitations being the same whatever the weight if flying on MCP and no mechanical failures. So yes, point taken...
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 01:25
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Make sure you never fly an aircraft after Chopjock has been in it.

Flying at max weight will cause brinelling in the rotor grip bearings, being overweight might just convince them to jam up completely. Engine and Xmsn chips will be more common, maybe not on Chopjock's flight (which is why he advocates it) but when some other poor bunny flies it later.

If you think the forces are the same whether overweight or not, try lifting an empty bucket with a rubber band, then fill it with water and try again. Goose.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 04:08
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Danger No such thing as IIMC

Bad luck is when I spill my Beer whilst driving over speed humps

IIMC is a lie! Going IMC is a choice by the Pilot! If You, your machine & legal procedures (plates etc) cannot enter cloud then, as a VFR Pilot if You do it is a criminal act, which sadly in this case led to the murder of some innocent Souls. nuff said
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 06:37
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Many years ago I flew on a helicopter shuttle operation with an experienced and well liked pilot. We were flying the same type on multiple rotations in and out of a large event. His helicopter was slightly heavier than mine empty. we were both carrying max pax loads. I was at max all up weight on my machine. He was refuelling less frequently than me thus carrying more fuel. If I was at max all up then where was he? He was also flying faster than me. I was flying as max permitted power in the cruise and he was going past me on a more draggy machine.

He flew the machine that way for four days. The following week it ended up in a field with another poor sod at the sticks with the gearbox making more metal than British Alcan. Risked the life of the pilot and damn near bankrupted the owner of the machine with the cost of the gearbox.

This pilot subsequently killed himself and his pax in a CFIT. I was not surprised.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 06:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
SND

As you know, aircraft G forces change in flight, therefore aircraft weight changes in flight too (not mass). So to answer my earlier question "What's the difference between taking off at max weight and climbing out at max power, and taking off over weight and climbing out at max power?"
If you are climbing out at MCP you will be the same load/stress at what ever weight, right? Lighter = higher ROC, heavier = lower ROC. Too heavy = no ROC.

WRONG! WTF? The head / rotor has to produce a force equal to the weight of what's hanging beneath it. So overweight = overstress on the design limits of the head / rotor. A bit like if you were hanging by your arms on monkey bars and some fat f$&ker grabs hold of your ankles for the ride. Are you seriously telling us your arms, wrists and grip wouldn't feel any difference?

Are you honestly a helicopter pilot??!!! SND summed up the best advice on where to go and the best manner in which to do it a few posts previously. You clearly don't understand even the very basics.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 08:59
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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pilotmike
WRONG! WTF? The head / rotor has to produce a force equal to the weight of what's hanging beneath it.
A bit like if you were hanging by your arms on monkey bars and some fat f$&ker grabs hold of your ankles for the ride. Are you seriously telling us your arms, wrists and grip wouldn't feel any difference?
In your analogy, If the monkey bars were accelerating upwards, faster if you are light but slower if you are heavy, then yes, I would feel NO difference because the stress is measured by the torque meter / tot gauge fitted to the bars. Ever gone up in a lift and felt heavier?
This limiting factor (controlled by the pilot) means a slower ROC when heavier, thus up to the SAME measured stress!

Ascend
If you think the forces are the same whether overweight or not, try lifting an empty bucket with a rubber band, then fill it with water and try again. Goose.
Yes the rubber band will stretch if my hand remains static. It will also stretch when you accelerate the hand holding the rubber band with empty bucket upwards!

OvertHawk
He flew the machine that way for four days.
Obviously over temping / torquing and thus overloading the gearbox. Presumably had the other machine flown within the torqe / tot limitations then a slower / lower performance flight would have occurred without overloading the gearbox.

Last edited by chopjock; 8th Jun 2018 at 10:13.
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