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Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport

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Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport

Old 16th Mar 2018, 10:36
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HeliComparator View Post
The Norwegian N Sea operators have been doing engineer ground runs for as long as I can remember. Obviously they have some training and a company approval to do so. Yes it is only the cliquey pilots who think they are so clever that no mere mortal could be capable of starting a helicopter safely. But despite that, more pilots break helicopters running on the ground, than engineers do!
Your opinion? Or is there clear evidence?
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 14:02
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by serf View Post
Your opinion? Or is there clear evidence?
About which bit?
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 16:16
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Yes it is only the cliquey pilots who think they are so clever that no mere mortal could be capable of starting a helicopter safely.
or is it cliquey engineers that dismiss pilot training as irrelevant for rotors turning ground runs?

But despite that, more pilots break helicopters running on the ground, than engineers do!
rather a vague assertion - based on some database of accidents and incidents?????
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 19:16
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I get the fact that engineers are great - I have relied heavily on their skills, graft and understanding for many years - but, when it comes to rotors running a non-tied down helicopter by someone who hasn't been taught to fly it just in case, then regardless of what the rules say (written by other engineers I suspect) I think it is plain stupid.
I'm with you. In this modern world of risk mitigation, engineers conducting ground runs adds unnecessary risk. In most companies I've worked for, newly converted pilots will not do single pilot engaged ground runs, so why would an engineer with virtually no "aircraft" training (in comparison) be allowed to do so.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 19:39
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Ultimately I would have thought the insurance companies and then owners are likely to be most influential in deciding whether or not engineers should do ground runs as time goes on - they have the most to lose! I know what I think - a helicopter with an engine running is only a small error by man or machine from needing a pilot's skill to control.

Any word on what actually caused this Perth accident? Must be known by a number of people already, surely?
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 20:16
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post

rather a vague assertion - based on some database of accidents and incidents?????
A slightly tongue in cheek assertion based on the premis that most ground runs are carried out by pilots and therefore the chances are that most ground run accidents occur with pilots at the controls.

But the underlying point is that plenty of pilots have messed up whilst carrying out ground runs. Why are you not clamouring for them to be disallowed to do ground runs? Oh, I forgot which clique you are in
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 23:30
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Why are you not clamouring for them to be disallowed to do ground runs? Oh, I forgot which clique you are in
that childish jibe really doesn't warrant a response
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 01:30
  #68 (permalink)  

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This debate seems to be going the same way as the argument that single engined helicopters are safer than twins because they don't crash where singles aren't allowed to fly in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned, pilots and engineers work together best as a team and should always endeavour to do so. I do my best to help engineers do the best they can to help me have a fully serviceable aircraft to fly, even if it means carrying out tasks that are not strictly my responsibility.

A helicopter with rotors turning is a potentially very dangerous machine. Starting one up is relatively straightforward, but keeping it safe once the rotors start turning is a different matter, especially when operating diagnostic equipment which provides a distraction. For example, if ground resonance occurs, there are two options - either shut down the engine/s and apply the rotor brake, which needs to be done very rapidly to be effective, or to lift off. Obviously, anyone not fully trained to fly the helicopter has only the former option, whereas a pilot has both.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 09:30
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Shy - concur completely
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 11:20
  #70 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by newfieboy View Post
Crab

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
A rotors turning helicopter is a flying helicopter.

Iíll put you in touch with our Ops Manager and Transport Canada. You boys can/will spend hours debating that one!
They control the laws of physics?
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 13:03
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Has an engineer doing a ground run ever had ground resonance, been forced to take-off and it all end horribly wrong?

I think this thread has shown that engineers, over the years, have done thousands of ground runs and accidents as a result have been very few and far between.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 13:21
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Everything has to be taken in the proper context.
Proper training is simply the only answer.
Want your engineer to run your aircraft...train them to that point to do it safely.
When are pilots undergoing flight school allowed to solo and start the machine alone while the instructor sits inside drinking his morning coffee? That should be the benchmark
Ive worked with many twatwaffles, both engineers and pilots. No one group can claim superiority over the other.
Some pilots i dont trust with a grease gun. Some engineers shouldnt even turn on the battery switch. But with the proper care, control and training...it can be a successful event.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 14:17
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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In certain country you are given the permission to do ground run with some internal training. France used to allow this practice. Japan too.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 15:38
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
that childish jibe really doesn't warrant a response
...and yet you did! As I have said, engineer ground runs are entirely routine in Norway, so my suggestion is that you get in touch with the Norwegian operators to let them know how they have been so wrong for all these years. Surely it is your duty to save the fools from themselves?
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 17:10
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Ah ...it is so nice to see a return to the good old daze of accusations and insults!
So amusing .
Must go and get some popcorn and a beer.
Carry on!
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 17:20
  #76 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Sky Sports View Post
Has an engineer doing a ground run ever had ground resonance, been forced to take-off and it all end horribly wrong?

I think this thread has shown that engineers, over the years, have done thousands of ground runs and accidents as a result have been very few and far between.
Maybe we'd better wait to see the outcome of the one at Perth...
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 18:32
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Surely it is your duty to save the fools from themselves?
too late - you've already retired
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 20:04
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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I was always a bit of a proponent of training and qualifying of engineers to carry out ground runs within the organisation that I used to work for. Apart from simulator and aircraft training I would have suggested that collective remained locked down and consideration should be given to limiting runs to ground idle.

On the subject of ground resonance, I can't help thinking that anyone who starts up a modern helicopter that has just come out of maintenance and then experiences 'ground resonance' should just shut things down as quickly as possible - I certainly wouldn't want to go flying in it!!

Cheers

TeeS i
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 00:06
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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I have experienced ground resonance on startup following maintenance twice and both times was lucky enough to be able to shut down quickly to avoid a rollover.

However, both occasion required control of the cyclic as well as the throttles, just to oppose the rolling moments and give enough time for throttles and rotor brake.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 09:40
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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A sudden panic call form Ops. There is a Puma running outside with two engineers in it not knowing what to do!

I hoof down the stairs and across the pan to this Puma which had the blades sailing at low Rrpm and one could hear them banging into the droop stops.

For those that don't know the 330 Puma the start system consists of a switch. Lift up and release and it goes into automatic start. Pressing it down just runs the starter motor which is what they had meant to do.

I went in through the cabin, knelt down on the jump seat, centralised the cyclic with my left hand and shut down the engine with my right. Then I applied the rotor brake.

They check the droop stops, which were OK and then there was a one sided conversation between them and the chief engineer.
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