Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport
Originally Posted by rotorspeed
Any word on what actually caused this Perth accident? Must be known by a number of people already, surely?
Anyone???
I'm genuinely interested to learn how the ginger beer managed to roll a 44 into a ball whist ground running.
The only problem with engineers (including myself) carrying out ground runs, is that a lot of the time they are running the helicopter "after" maintenance, repairs, component replacement or an overhaul.
This could lead to an out of balance incident if anything was installed out of balance etc , new blade, main rotor head, straps, etc.
I have been on a ground run that was "walking" around the helipad quite briskly with tail rotor balance equipment being dragged along the ground behind it. The main rotor blades had not been aligned correctly after strap replacement.
It would have made no difference if a pilot was running it.
This could lead to an out of balance incident if anything was installed out of balance etc , new blade, main rotor head, straps, etc.
I have been on a ground run that was "walking" around the helipad quite briskly with tail rotor balance equipment being dragged along the ground behind it. The main rotor blades had not been aligned correctly after strap replacement.
It would have made no difference if a pilot was running it.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
too late - you've already retired
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver
A sudden panic call form Ops. There is a Puma running outside with two engineers in it not knowing what to do!
I hoof down the stairs and across the pan to this Puma which had the blades sailing at low Rrpm and one could hear them banging into the droop stops.
For those that don't know the 330 Puma the start system consists of a switch. Lift up and release and it goes into automatic start. Pressing it down just runs the starter motor which is what they had meant to do.
I went in through the cabin, knelt down on the jump seat, centralised the cyclic with my left hand and shut down the engine with my right. Then I applied the rotor brake.
They check the droop stops, which were OK and then there was a one sided conversation between them and the chief engineer.
I hoof down the stairs and across the pan to this Puma which had the blades sailing at low Rrpm and one could hear them banging into the droop stops.
For those that don't know the 330 Puma the start system consists of a switch. Lift up and release and it goes into automatic start. Pressing it down just runs the starter motor which is what they had meant to do.
I went in through the cabin, knelt down on the jump seat, centralised the cyclic with my left hand and shut down the engine with my right. Then I applied the rotor brake.
They check the droop stops, which were OK and then there was a one sided conversation between them and the chief engineer.
Well yes but this was because the engineers had had no training whatsoever in groundrunning helicopters.
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver
The why didn't you push for them to be trained when you worked for them?
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Originally Posted by finalchecksplease
I think you might find he did, not 100% sure why it was shelved in the end but might had to do with engineers wanting extra allowances for it.
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I can understand the desire of engineers to do their own ground runs. Having been an avid motor car DIY person I would not like to fix something and then stand aside whilst somebody else proves it. However, running a helicopter is a bit different and the person doing the running would not know the effects of tailwinds over the disc or even understand how to control it should the a droop stop stay out.
As Crab says. A helicopter is virtually flying when the rotors are turning.
As Crab says. A helicopter is virtually flying when the rotors are turning.
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Superman doesnt exist. But its a really cool story how he was born with these super powers.
I dont think there is one single pilot ever born with super powers either. You all got trained. Its a process. Guess what? Others can be trained. Its not rocket science. But its the key.
I dont think there is one single pilot ever born with super powers either. You all got trained. Its a process. Guess what? Others can be trained. Its not rocket science. But its the key.
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Total thread drift;
Back in the mid 1990's I flew into Sumburgh in an AS332 having gone round the houses all day. P2 was an unusual character whose name still causes shivers down the spines of many pilots in the Aberdeen crew rooms. Having imbibed a lake of coffee I had a real need to relieve some pressure before the last sector to Aberdeen. I asked if he minded if I jumped out first and dashed to the gents which was just inside the terminal door while he started the RR re-fuel. He agreed, we stopped and I leapt out (leaping was still possible then) and dashed for the bog.
Mighty relieved I was just going back theough the door to the aircraft when the P2 passed me on his way in. There was a brief, confused look on his face and then he turned round. Our Puma was on spot, running, being re-fueled, in the dark, in a 30-40kt wind and rain. I still reckon that he and I dressed in suits, lifejackets and flying boots were pretty close to Olympic record times as we ran for the aircraft.
The pax had been removed during the re-fuel process, only the bowser driver was nearby, and no-one else saw us. He would certainly have been fired, and I would have been a P2 again by the following morning.
SND
Back in the mid 1990's I flew into Sumburgh in an AS332 having gone round the houses all day. P2 was an unusual character whose name still causes shivers down the spines of many pilots in the Aberdeen crew rooms. Having imbibed a lake of coffee I had a real need to relieve some pressure before the last sector to Aberdeen. I asked if he minded if I jumped out first and dashed to the gents which was just inside the terminal door while he started the RR re-fuel. He agreed, we stopped and I leapt out (leaping was still possible then) and dashed for the bog.
Mighty relieved I was just going back theough the door to the aircraft when the P2 passed me on his way in. There was a brief, confused look on his face and then he turned round. Our Puma was on spot, running, being re-fueled, in the dark, in a 30-40kt wind and rain. I still reckon that he and I dressed in suits, lifejackets and flying boots were pretty close to Olympic record times as we ran for the aircraft.
The pax had been removed during the re-fuel process, only the bowser driver was nearby, and no-one else saw us. He would certainly have been fired, and I would have been a P2 again by the following morning.
SND
Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
Superman doesnt exist. But its a really cool story how he was born with these super powers.
I dont think there is one single pilot ever born with super powers either. You all got trained. Its a process. Guess what? Others can be trained. Its not rocket science. But its the key.
I dont think there is one single pilot ever born with super powers either. You all got trained. Its a process. Guess what? Others can be trained. Its not rocket science. But its the key.
Experience would be difficult to get ground running... e.g. on some 44's when you push the carby heat down with the frictions off the collective comes up... that ones not in the manual! or how about on machines with a light collective a decent gust of wind can bring the collective up too.
How does the machine feel? Who spends hours and hours sitting in them?
Avoid imitations
John, yes - a helicopter without blades is just a big generator set. 
But it's difficult to carry out a track and balance without the blades on!
But it's difficult to carry out a track and balance without the blades on!
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In the halcyon days of Sumburgh in the 70s the Bristow aircraft would be parked one side of the apron and the BAH aircraft the other side. There wasn't an awful lot of room between them when you taxied out.
I was briefed to err on the BAH side so if I collected a rotor blade I would take out one of BAH's aircraft as well as my own.
I was briefed to err on the BAH side so if I collected a rotor blade I would take out one of BAH's aircraft as well as my own.
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Originally Posted by Aluminium Mallard
True... we all got trained... AND THEN we spent hours and hours accumulating experience.
Experience would be difficult to get ground running... e.g. on some 44's when you push the carby heat down with the frictions off the collective comes up... that ones not in the manual! or how about on machines with a light collective a decent gust of wind can bring the collective up too.
How does the machine feel? Who spends hours and hours sitting in them?
Experience would be difficult to get ground running... e.g. on some 44's when you push the carby heat down with the frictions off the collective comes up... that ones not in the manual! or how about on machines with a light collective a decent gust of wind can bring the collective up too.
How does the machine feel? Who spends hours and hours sitting in them?
Avoid imitations
Dont worry, engineers wont take your precious job away from you.
Especially in view of the earlier comments about one claiming to have to do ground runs himself because he was often unable to get pilots out of their warm crewroom!
Having said that, I did once tell an engineer I would not do an early morning ground run - but that was because the weather was conducive to engine intake icing and outside of the aircraft's weather limits (turbine engines no intake protection, so quite strict icing limits). That was in the early 1980s.
A bit adrift, story abounds of a engineer standing on the fixed floats of a running 205 tinkering with something/leak check when pilot decided to do a circuit. Shades of the WAAF doing a circuit sitting on the tail of a Spitfire. Perhaps it's better if the engineers do the ground runs. 
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An Bristow AS332 got airborne from a platform in the Shetland Basin with a bear standing on the luggage bay door loading the baggage. A panic call from the helideck and he came back.
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As a helicopter mechanic, licenced and rated on several types in Australia, Fiji, and PNG, I would not ground run a machine unless I had a pilot at the controls.
Having said that I know of a Bell47 doing pirouettes on wet grass when the bricks fell off the pedals when someone ???? was doing a fan balance at 2 am dark o'clock, dragging oneself along the basket to get to the throttle took some doing.
Years ago at Army Aviation Base Oakey, SNCOs were approved to do ground runs on 3B1s.
To pull enough power to get the turbo to bootstrap six diggers were stood on each skid and collective was pulled.
During one particular ground run one person fell off the left skid, the machine rolled over resulting in death and destruction.
Needless to say this practice was banned.
My personal risk mitigation is that unless you can fly the machine, don't run it.
FWIW
Having said that I know of a Bell47 doing pirouettes on wet grass when the bricks fell off the pedals when someone ???? was doing a fan balance at 2 am dark o'clock, dragging oneself along the basket to get to the throttle took some doing.
Years ago at Army Aviation Base Oakey, SNCOs were approved to do ground runs on 3B1s.
To pull enough power to get the turbo to bootstrap six diggers were stood on each skid and collective was pulled.
During one particular ground run one person fell off the left skid, the machine rolled over resulting in death and destruction.
Needless to say this practice was banned.
My personal risk mitigation is that unless you can fly the machine, don't run it.
FWIW
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Originally Posted by megan
A bit adrift, story abounds of a engineer standing on the fixed floats of a running 205 tinkering with something/leak check when pilot decided to do a circuit. Shades of the WAAF doing a circuit sitting on the tail of a Spitfire. Perhaps it's better if the engineers do the ground runs.
After maintenance test flight terminated near the hangar, during two minute run down period the mechanic gets out, opens LH engine cowl and having a bit of a stickey at the bits and pieces.
Whilst he is having a look, ground ops radios the pilot to relocate the Iroquois onto the pad.
Not knowing that the mechanic is standing on the skid the pilot spools up and pulls collective.
In a low hover taxi the mechanic starts belting the side of the helicopter with his tools, pilot thinks he has a massive compressor stall dumps the club and rolls his mate across the tarmac.
