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Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport

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Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport

Old 14th Mar 2018, 21:50
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Slightly off topic... is Kingsfield Helicopters at Perth still going? I would imagine recreational helicopter training in Scotland is not high on most people’s financial agenda. Got my ppl(h) there some years ago, good bunch.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 22:27
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Try telling the owner his helicopter has not had an accident and hand it back as is then !
True, but in the terms of reporting an "accident" to the AAIB, and them investigating it, then the definition is:
“Accident” means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which, in the case of a manned aircraft, takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and such time as all such persons have disembarked,
As there was no intention of flight, it wasn't an "accident".
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 22:51
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by olster View Post
Slightly off topic... is Kingsfield Helicopters at Perth still going? I would imagine recreational helicopter training in Scotland is not high on most peopleís financial agenda. Got my ppl(h) there some years ago, good bunch.
Folded a couple of years ago, not enough demand unfortunately.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 23:07
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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As there was no intention of flight, it wasn't an "accident".
Don't suppose there was much intent to roll it over and write it off either
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 00:01
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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What a strange definition of “accident” the AAIB apparently uses. If the engineer had inadvertently taken off, then decided to fly around Perth for a while doing a bit of sightseeing before running out of fuel and crashing into a school, there would be no “accident”.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 00:52
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
And any modern Risk assessment as part of a Safety Management System would tell you that.
You really need to get out more. Don't know which risk assessment standard you use, but said mechanic ground run program has been part of the company required 135 documentation since before my time and was included in the SMS docs prior to my leaving.

Considering over 300 mechanics have the ability to ground run aircraft, multiple types in most cases, it is far from "just lucky" we made it through the past years. It boils down to some people can multi-task and some can't. But this system has been used by the manority of operators on this side of the pond to great success.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 08:20
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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OK so how much training do you get before you are allowed to conduct rotors running ground runs by yourself? Any hands on training in case the aircraft does get airborne?
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 11:37
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by olster View Post
Slightly off topic... is Kingsfield Helicopters at Perth still going? I would imagine recreational helicopter training in Scotland is not high on most peopleís financial agenda. Got my ppl(h) there some years ago, good bunch.
Yeah great bunch but sadly no longer there. Sad times really for private helicopter flying in Scotland. I think the cost of ownership what with recalls for blades/bladder tanks/ new head systems etc has put a great deal of people off. Going off topic Iíve always wondered why no one in Scotland started a group flying a helicopter. 6 guys all spreading the costs etc and if one was an engineer, what a bonus. Thereís one operating very successfully down south for many years now. Anyone interested PM me, sorry for drift!!!!
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 18:01
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
OK so how much training do you get before you are allowed to conduct rotors running ground runs by yourself?
RFM training on start procedures/run procedures/emergency procedures with qualified pilot. Then 5 ground runs to the pilot's satisfaction after which he signs your run-up card. Then 1 recurrent start with a pilot annually.

Any hands on training in case the aircraft does get airborne
No. Aircraft tie-downs to be used when available. Controls to be locked or frictioned unless ground test written procedure requires control movement. No hydraulic checks permitted with rotors turning. Plus additional limitations for wheeled aircraft.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 18:10
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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I have trained engineers for engine runs and emergencies in the aircraft and in the sim but never for rotors running checks.

If the aircraft is tied down, that is one thing but just having the controls frictioned or even locked is potentially hazardous. Allowing control movements would seem to automatically require a pilot.

The fact that no hyd checks are allowed seems to indicate that someone has at least thought through the potential for the inadvertent airborne scenario as do the extra limitations for wheeled aircraft due to the propensity for ground resonance.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 18:53
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by paco View Post
As long as there is no intent of flight, which includes taxying

CAT.GEN.MPA.130
Do you think this was in their manual........under MPA.130

(1) the operator should ensure that the qualification of personnel, other than pilots, who are authorised to conduct maintenance runs is described in the appropriate manual;
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 19:04
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by smarthawke View Post
I realise itís impossible to imagine but some engineers actually hold a pilotís licence. Perhaps the unfortunate person involved in this incident, did.

As for moving it before the AAIB visited - they may well have given permission for it to be moved and are more than likely not going to travel to Perth to see the helicopter anyway.

Who knows....?

PS Re the ARC bring expired. Not important for a ground run but even if the ARC had been renewed, G-INFO wouldnít show the updated info until the following midnight when the system updates.
One of the main reasons I obtained my licence was because its was VERY difficult getting pilot(s) out of the warm and comfy office to do the "boring" numerous repetitive ground runs in the cold and wet for diagnosis or balance checks. Especially early or late in the day, and heavens forbid at weekends, just for ground runs.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 21:42
  #53 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by PEASACAKE View Post
One of the main reasons I obtained my licence was because its was VERY difficult getting pilot(s) out of the warm and comfy office to do the "boring" numerous repetitive ground runs in the cold and wet for diagnosis or balance checks. Especially early or late in the day, and heavens forbid at weekends, just for ground runs.
Would have been a good idea to get the chief pilot to give a few kicks up deserving backsides. If a ground run needs doing on my aircraft, I want to do it, irrespective of the weather. In the past I've driven almost 100 miles to get to the maintenance base for a ground run. On one occasion, I was expected to do one run for a track and balance confirmation then fly back to base. As it was, I stayed overnight and did twenty or so ground runs before it came into line the following afternoon (when a different engineer was called in and was able to point out where the original one was going wrong....and yes, it was a weekend).

Last edited by ShyTorque; 15th Mar 2018 at 22:27. Reason: grammar!
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 22:14
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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What a strange definition of “accident” the AAIB apparently uses
No "apparently" about it:
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...rious-incident
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 00:21
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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It is a very military view that all things flying are governed by pilots when in fact they are not. The FAA, CAA and EASA do not mandate that pilots do ground runs. Only operators create this rule...and, obviously, there are a great deal of operators that don't require pilots for their ground running checks.

However pilots may feel about this, they are wrong in this case...unless they can change the regulations.

Even in the military I once declared a 'D' state (AOG) to Command for the lack of a pilot for ground runs, and we remained at that state for five days before someone with a tick in the box thought to turn up! Imagine the wages and facility costs to any civvy company for that sort of shortage affecting ten-plus engineers and support staff.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 00:34
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PEASACAKE View Post
Do you think this was in their manual........under MPA.130

(1) the operator should ensure that the qualification of personnel, other than pilots, who are authorised to conduct maintenance runs is described in the appropriate manual;
Interesting point, who's manual?? As these provisions fall under and listed in CAT, NCO, SPO etc for maintenance runs as detailed in the operators manual, does this mean that an engineer needs to be trained/checked out by each operator to their specific requirements?🤔

Or am I missing something?
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 00:44
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Hope the guy has a speedy recovery, heís a hard working man. Every time I walk past his shop heís grafting away fixing choppers.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 01:26
  #58 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Rigga View Post
It is a very military view that all things flying are governed by pilots when in fact they are not. The FAA, CAA and EASA do not mandate that pilots do ground runs. Only operators create this rule...and, obviously, there are a great deal of operators that don't require pilots for their ground running checks.

However pilots may feel about this, they are wrong in this case...unless they can change the regulations.

Even in the military I once declared a 'D' state (AOG) to Command for the lack of a pilot for ground runs, and we remained at that state for five days before someone with a tick in the box thought to turn up! Imagine the wages and facility costs to any civvy company for that sort of shortage affecting ten-plus engineers and support staff.
AOG or not, the aircraft wasn't going to be used if there was no pilot to fly it.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 09:22
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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And imagine the cost of an aircraft rolled over because it needed a pilot instead of an engineer to do the ground run but no one wanted to wait.............

I get the fact that engineers are great - I have relied heavily on their skills, graft and understanding for many years - but, when it comes to rotors running a non-tied down helicopter by someone who hasn't been taught to fly it just in case, then regardless of what the rules say (written by other engineers I suspect) I think it is plain stupid.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 10:19
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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The Norwegian N Sea operators have been doing engineer ground runs for as long as I can remember. Obviously they have some training and a company approval to do so. Yes it is only the cliquey pilots who think they are so clever that no mere mortal could be capable of starting a helicopter safely. But despite that, more pilots break helicopters running on the ground, than engineers do!
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