Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: uk
Slightly off topic... is Kingsfield Helicopters at Perth still going? I would imagine recreational helicopter training in Scotland is not high on most people’s financial agenda. Got my ppl(h) there some years ago, good bunch.
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Warrington, UK
Try telling the owner his helicopter has not had an accident and hand it back as is then !
“Accident” means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which, in the case of a manned aircraft, takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and such time as all such persons have disembarked,
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: uk
Folded a couple of years ago, not enough demand unfortunately.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Australia
What a strange definition of “accident” the AAIB apparently uses. If the engineer had inadvertently taken off, then decided to fly around Perth for a while doing a bit of sightseeing before running out of fuel and crashing into a school, there would be no “accident”.
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: USA
Originally Posted by [email protected]
And any modern Risk assessment as part of a Safety Management System would tell you that.
Considering over 300 mechanics have the ability to ground run aircraft, multiple types in most cases, it is far from "just lucky" we made it through the past years. It boils down to some people can multi-task and some can't. But this system has been used by the manority of operators on this side of the pond to great success.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
OK so how much training do you get before you are allowed to conduct rotors running ground runs by yourself? Any hands on training in case the aircraft does get airborne?
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: scotland
Yeah great bunch but sadly no longer there. Sad times really for private helicopter flying in Scotland. I think the cost of ownership what with recalls for blades/bladder tanks/ new head systems etc has put a great deal of people off. Going off topic I’ve always wondered why no one in Scotland started a group flying a helicopter. 6 guys all spreading the costs etc and if one was an engineer, what a bonus. There’s one operating very successfully down south for many years now. Anyone interested PM me, sorry for drift!!!!
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From: USA
Originally Posted by [email protected]
OK so how much training do you get before you are allowed to conduct rotors running ground runs by yourself?
Any hands on training in case the aircraft does get airborne
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
I have trained engineers for engine runs and emergencies in the aircraft and in the sim but never for rotors running checks.
If the aircraft is tied down, that is one thing but just having the controls frictioned or even locked is potentially hazardous. Allowing control movements would seem to automatically require a pilot.
The fact that no hyd checks are allowed seems to indicate that someone has at least thought through the potential for the inadvertent airborne scenario as do the extra limitations for wheeled aircraft due to the propensity for ground resonance.
If the aircraft is tied down, that is one thing but just having the controls frictioned or even locked is potentially hazardous. Allowing control movements would seem to automatically require a pilot.
The fact that no hyd checks are allowed seems to indicate that someone has at least thought through the potential for the inadvertent airborne scenario as do the extra limitations for wheeled aircraft due to the propensity for ground resonance.
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Good Question
(1) the operator should ensure that the qualification of personnel, other than pilots, who are authorised to conduct maintenance runs is described in the appropriate manual;
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Good Question
I realise it’s impossible to imagine but some engineers actually hold a pilot’s licence. Perhaps the unfortunate person involved in this incident, did.
As for moving it before the AAIB visited - they may well have given permission for it to be moved and are more than likely not going to travel to Perth to see the helicopter anyway.
Who knows....?
PS Re the ARC bring expired. Not important for a ground run but even if the ARC had been renewed, G-INFO wouldn’t show the updated info until the following midnight when the system updates.
As for moving it before the AAIB visited - they may well have given permission for it to be moved and are more than likely not going to travel to Perth to see the helicopter anyway.
Who knows....?
PS Re the ARC bring expired. Not important for a ground run but even if the ARC had been renewed, G-INFO wouldn’t show the updated info until the following midnight when the system updates.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
One of the main reasons I obtained my licence was because its was VERY difficult getting pilot(s) out of the warm and comfy office to do the "boring" numerous repetitive ground runs in the cold and wet for diagnosis or balance checks. Especially early or late in the day, and heavens forbid at weekends, just for ground runs.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 15th March 2018 at 21:27. Reason: grammar!
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Warrington, UK
What a strange definition of “accident” the AAIB apparently uses
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...rious-incident
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Anglia
It is a very military view that all things flying are governed by pilots when in fact they are not. The FAA, CAA and EASA do not mandate that pilots do ground runs. Only operators create this rule...and, obviously, there are a great deal of operators that don't require pilots for their ground running checks.
However pilots may feel about this, they are wrong in this case...unless they can change the regulations.
Even in the military I once declared a 'D' state (AOG) to Command for the lack of a pilot for ground runs, and we remained at that state for five days before someone with a tick in the box thought to turn up! Imagine the wages and facility costs to any civvy company for that sort of shortage affecting ten-plus engineers and support staff.
However pilots may feel about this, they are wrong in this case...unless they can change the regulations.
Even in the military I once declared a 'D' state (AOG) to Command for the lack of a pilot for ground runs, and we remained at that state for five days before someone with a tick in the box thought to turn up! Imagine the wages and facility costs to any civvy company for that sort of shortage affecting ten-plus engineers and support staff.
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: uk
Or am I missing something?
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
It is a very military view that all things flying are governed by pilots when in fact they are not. The FAA, CAA and EASA do not mandate that pilots do ground runs. Only operators create this rule...and, obviously, there are a great deal of operators that don't require pilots for their ground running checks.
However pilots may feel about this, they are wrong in this case...unless they can change the regulations.
Even in the military I once declared a 'D' state (AOG) to Command for the lack of a pilot for ground runs, and we remained at that state for five days before someone with a tick in the box thought to turn up! Imagine the wages and facility costs to any civvy company for that sort of shortage affecting ten-plus engineers and support staff.
However pilots may feel about this, they are wrong in this case...unless they can change the regulations.
Even in the military I once declared a 'D' state (AOG) to Command for the lack of a pilot for ground runs, and we remained at that state for five days before someone with a tick in the box thought to turn up! Imagine the wages and facility costs to any civvy company for that sort of shortage affecting ten-plus engineers and support staff.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
And imagine the cost of an aircraft rolled over because it needed a pilot instead of an engineer to do the ground run but no one wanted to wait.............
I get the fact that engineers are great - I have relied heavily on their skills, graft and understanding for many years - but, when it comes to rotors running a non-tied down helicopter by someone who hasn't been taught to fly it just in case, then regardless of what the rules say (written by other engineers I suspect) I think it is plain stupid.
I get the fact that engineers are great - I have relied heavily on their skills, graft and understanding for many years - but, when it comes to rotors running a non-tied down helicopter by someone who hasn't been taught to fly it just in case, then regardless of what the rules say (written by other engineers I suspect) I think it is plain stupid.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Aberdeen
The Norwegian N Sea operators have been doing engineer ground runs for as long as I can remember. Obviously they have some training and a company approval to do so. Yes it is only the cliquey pilots who think they are so clever that no mere mortal could be capable of starting a helicopter safely. But despite that, more pilots break helicopters running on the ground, than engineers do!