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Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport

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Helicopter crashed at Perth Airport

Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:24
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Er - get a pilot in early to do it.
Err - that would mean bringing in 1 to 3 pilots on average per night during the summer months. With runs needed at various times like 11pm, 1am or 3am, sometimes on multiple aircraft or lengthy runs to complete maintenance... how would you tell the customer he loses several aircraft at noon due to pilot duty times?
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:59
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Have one pilot who is your dedicated Maintenance Test Pilot, or even have more than one, or have a roster so the duties are shared out.

Hardly a difficult problem to solve but that wouldn't maximise profits - until an engineer accidentally gets airborne on a ground run and totals the aircraft - that would be expensive.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 23:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldLurker View Post
The photo above, and the BBC's first photo, show the aircraft on its side witIn any case, after an accident causing injury, should it have been moved before the AAIB had a chance to look at it?
If the aircraft wasn't intended to fly, the AAIB don't get involved as it's not an "accident"
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 23:40
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Pilots views are generally incorrect in this respect. Ground Crew have been doing ground runs in many companies for as long as I can remember. SOME companies specify pilots only to do the job, but then have to wait til a suitable pilot can be found = uneconomic (and economics is normally driven by owner/pilots). It was even practiced in the RAF for a while, though admittedly without Blades on a Chinook.
Engineers are normally trained for this purpose and are much more practiced than portrayed here. And it's not uncommon for engineers to become pilots to do this and flight checks too.

Added Bit:
I know of two engineers that conduct post-maintenance flight checks and they do it from an engineers POV, not from a pilots view. Their aircraft are/were generally accepted as in the best possible condition post checks.

Last edited by Rigga; 13th Mar 2018 at 23:45. Reason: Added bit:
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 23:41
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Insurance will cover accidents, but not pilots wages!
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 00:02
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Have one pilot who is your dedicated Maintenance Test Pilot, or even have more than one, or have a roster so the duties are shared out.

Hardly a difficult problem to solve but that wouldn't maximise profits - until an engineer accidentally gets airborne on a ground run and totals the aircraft - that would be expensive.
That might work at your government job, but as you said it wouldn't make financial sense in the private sector. Not too many companies could afford 10-12 pilots (X2) sitting around off contract.

Would you keep them flight current on one model or all models that visit the base? Or current on one model and ground qualified on the rest? If current on all models, do you pay them at the rate of the largest aircraft qualified? Etc., etc. At current pay rates of the largest aircraft (S76) mechanics ran when I left, that would cost over $1.5M USD/yr just in salaries for those maintenance test pilots to be available at 10 bases on a 7/7 sch.

That's why 50+ years ago mechanics started running aircraft over here. As for a wrench banging one up or flying away, it happened (I recall 5 in my 30+ yrs) but no where near the rate of pilots who banged up or destroyed theirs during a ground run.

Bottom-line, when the sun rose, every aircraft was ready for revenue save the odd test flight or flight track requirement. And it still goes on today except the fleets are getting smaller and changing with the 92/139 types and double flt crews reducing the need for mechanic run ups.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 07:13
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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You'd think an engineer would be safe ground running a fixed wing - no? Well, no. Engineer accidentally got airborne in one of these, and safely landed it.

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Old 14th Mar 2018, 08:26
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Differing standards perhaps, but during my time with the military we would only ever allow a current pilot to complete a rotors running ground run. It even went in the authorisation sheets!
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 08:34
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed - no problem with engine runs or anything that doesn't involve the rotors turning. A rotors turning helicopter is a flying helicopter.

Wrench1 - if your pilots are messing up ground runs then sack them.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 09:12
  #30 (permalink)  

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As far as running a helicopter without blades goes, no problems for a suitably trained engineer doing that because it is not really a helicopter and hardly likely to get into ground resonance or suffer excessive blade flapping and damage droop stops or chop its own tail. Its just a collection of mechanical systems, like a complicated generator set.

On the other hand, if there's no engineer available out of hours (and most seem to work office hours in UK), why not let pilots fix their own faults? Some are quite handy with a spanner and a multimeter....
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 09:44
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Pinched from the SCAA Twitter feed. Interesting to see the yellow cable that is taped to the side and appears to be there pre accident. An experienced helo pilot friend reckons it is some form of blade balancing kit....in his works it still needs some work doing!!!

Sorry but the picture I posted appears not to work....check out the SCAA twitter feed to see what I mean.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 14th Mar 2018 at 11:42. Reason: Fix url link
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 11:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Engineers Ground Running

This thread could get a little hazy.

I know of 2 Engineers with PPL(H) who regularly carry out ground checks, with engine(s) running and occasionally Flight Checks.

I also know 2 professional pilots with ATPL(H) and also B1 Engineers Licences, who carry out engineering task, under the Operators Quality System..
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 12:20
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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If you are dual qualified then there is no problem - I know a couple of engineers with pilot licences too.

A non-flying qualified engineer doing ground track and balance, so trying to take the readings from the kit whilst controlling the helicopter - what could possibly go wrong??? Oh yes, that picture shows exactly that!

I have ground run an aircraft that had just been adjusted to improve the track and balance - problem was the adjustment was in the wrong direction and an 18 inch track split became very apparent as I wound the rotors up - needless to say it was a quick shutdown.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 14:28
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
A rotors turning helicopter is a flying helicopter.
Is this you personal definition?
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 14:30
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Not an accident

Originally Posted by rr84c View Post
If the aircraft wasn't intended to fly, the AAIB don't get involved as it's not an "accident"
Try telling the owner his helicopter has not had an accident and hand it back as is then !
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 16:14
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
if your pilots are messing up ground runs then sack them.
I always forget you're a perfect pilot who only operates in a perfect world. I guess it's only been through divine intervention that us mortals have survived the past 50 years in the industry without your superior knowledge and skill.

To close, I too have had blades go widely out of track during M/R work but instead of a "quick shutdown," I simply rolled back to idle and completed the cool down so as not to hurt the engine. But what do I know.....
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 16:31
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Crab

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
A rotors turning helicopter is a flying helicopter.

Iíll put you in touch with our Ops Manager and Transport Canada. You boys can/will spend hours debating that one!
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 19:07
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Is this you personal definition?
No but it is what the British Mil believe (quite rightly in my opinion) which is why pilots do rotors running ground runs and not engineers.

I always forget you're a perfect pilot who only operates in a perfect world
a bit unnecessarily personal but not unusual for some on this forum.

Getting away with it for 50 years doesn't make you safe - just lucky. And any modern Risk assessment as part of a Safety Management System would tell you that.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 21:14
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the days of KLM Helicopters engineers carried out ground runs on the S61 and also had recurrent sim training. A trained engineer is as good as any pilot on the ground, a pilot begins to earn his money once airborne.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 21:41
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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And that's the difference - trained engineer with sim experience compared to just getting on with it with no flying training.
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