'Condolences' are not suitable fare for public display
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I have long felt uncomfortable at the mawkish and inappropriate "condolences" offered on this forum whenever there has been a death. That is not to suggest that I, nor anyone else, do not regret a fatal accident (as some berk is doubtless about to accuse me of), but I cannot see the need for an ostentatious public display of sackcloth and ashes for someone you have never met - ie the Diana syndrome as luoto so correctly called it.
We do not post condolences for evry victim of car crashes or heart attacks do we? Sure, aviation is out chosen field and fatalities are close to home, but I still feel uncomfortable with the public nature of these statements, just as I (and the Bible) do with ostentatious displays of public God-bothering whch, like grief is usually kept private in our society.
Surely such condolences are, if necessary, a private matter between yourself and the relatives and not suitable fare for public display? Would you go up to the bereaved at a stranger's funeral and offer condolences? The hell you would, so why do it here?
And no, I'm not callous, unfeeling or whatever the PPRuNe hotheads are likely to call me, I just don't think it is appropriate. Thats all.
I've started a new thread with your post because, in my view, it was inappropriate to leave it where you posted it. Those who don't share your views can now continue to express their sadness, condolences, hopes for the souls of those who died etc without being distracted by a discussion about whether it's appropriate for them to do so.
Heliport
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We do not post condolences for evry victim of car crashes or heart attacks do we? Sure, aviation is out chosen field and fatalities are close to home, but I still feel uncomfortable with the public nature of these statements, just as I (and the Bible) do with ostentatious displays of public God-bothering whch, like grief is usually kept private in our society.
Surely such condolences are, if necessary, a private matter between yourself and the relatives and not suitable fare for public display? Would you go up to the bereaved at a stranger's funeral and offer condolences? The hell you would, so why do it here?
And no, I'm not callous, unfeeling or whatever the PPRuNe hotheads are likely to call me, I just don't think it is appropriate. Thats all.
I've started a new thread with your post because, in my view, it was inappropriate to leave it where you posted it. Those who don't share your views can now continue to express their sadness, condolences, hopes for the souls of those who died etc without being distracted by a discussion about whether it's appropriate for them to do so.
Heliport
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Last edited by Heliport; 17th Jul 2002 at 18:38.
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Well spotted - but no record.
The number of views is misleading because the post was split from another thread.
This thread started at 2363 views!
300 posts, and no opinion on this topic - is this a record?
The number of views is misleading because the post was split from another thread.
This thread started at 2363 views!
300 posts, and no opinion on this topic - is this a record?
Last edited by Heliport; 18th Jul 2002 at 05:59.
So where's the new thread, Heliport???
You're in it. The first post (by Capt Waffoo) was moved away from another thread to start this one. Duh!
You're in it. The first post (by Capt Waffoo) was moved away from another thread to start this one. Duh!
Last edited by Heliport; 17th Jul 2002 at 20:39.
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On a motorcycle forum I frequent there is an occasional thread that comes up with people posting such condolences, often times with replies of support by random people but sometimes its a forum member that we all know fairly well and the thread becomes emotionally charged with sincere responses. Its up to the forum moderators to set guidelines but I imagine most people see such threads as doing more good than harm when they appear, quite unfortunately, on occasion.
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I think it's because we all feel a certain universal kinship with each other that goes beyond national boundaries, whether we are acquainted personally or not. Ours is a tiny industry - at least, our little corner of Aviation is. And I have to admit to feeling a sense of sadness whenever I hear of the demise of other professionals who were out there, doing their job, risking their lives (do we not?) to fly these strange contraptions.
Sometimes I think the messages of condolences are...maybe not so much "mawkish," as capt waffoo calls them...maybe just more open, emotionally, than I care to be. But I see no harm in them, and I'd like to think that upon reading of my own demise, someone might offer up a similar sentiment.
God love all of you bahstids!
Sometimes I think the messages of condolences are...maybe not so much "mawkish," as capt waffoo calls them...maybe just more open, emotionally, than I care to be. But I see no harm in them, and I'd like to think that upon reading of my own demise, someone might offer up a similar sentiment.
God love all of you bahstids!
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I'm with Flare Dammit.
It might not seem wholly appropriate, but what else you gonna do?
We all feel a sense of loss, of helplessness, tragedy. One (or more) of us bought the farm.
If somebody had invented the right thing to do or say in all circumstances, it'd be easy.
Until they do, it's just - Jeez. Bummer.
Or to put it another way, 'my thoughts go out to the families.'
It might not seem wholly appropriate, but what else you gonna do?
We all feel a sense of loss, of helplessness, tragedy. One (or more) of us bought the farm.
If somebody had invented the right thing to do or say in all circumstances, it'd be easy.
Until they do, it's just - Jeez. Bummer.
Or to put it another way, 'my thoughts go out to the families.'
Avoid imitations
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I think "mawkish" is an insulting and inappropriate description. 
Such condolences are probably always well meant. If you don't like it, don't do it or read others' comments but I don't see why anyone should suffer criticism because they choose to pass on their thoughts at a sad time.
Each to his own.
Such condolences are probably always well meant. If you don't like it, don't do it or read others' comments but I don't see why anyone should suffer criticism because they choose to pass on their thoughts at a sad time.
Each to his own.
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Capt Waffoo,
Your a brave man indeed.........
I feel "Flare Dammitt" has indentified the word "Kinship" which is apt in these circumstances.
I disagree with your suggestion of other groups not responding in the same manner as our members.........just look at the obtiuaries in the various newspapers, people don't need to know you directly or personally to feel sadened by your mimise.
Within our industry in Australia, all the Offshore crews regardless of which company they belong are known to each other, and I am sure it is the same in the UK........and with the cross flow of people across the industry there is a high propability that paths will cross at some time.
That probability increases when you narrow down the crews that fly the S76 Offshore.......hence "Kinship".
Your a brave man indeed.........
I feel "Flare Dammitt" has indentified the word "Kinship" which is apt in these circumstances.
I disagree with your suggestion of other groups not responding in the same manner as our members.........just look at the obtiuaries in the various newspapers, people don't need to know you directly or personally to feel sadened by your mimise.
Within our industry in Australia, all the Offshore crews regardless of which company they belong are known to each other, and I am sure it is the same in the UK........and with the cross flow of people across the industry there is a high propability that paths will cross at some time.
That probability increases when you narrow down the crews that fly the S76 Offshore.......hence "Kinship".
I am with Flaredammit this time (!).
Capt Wafty, I think you and your obdurate views are wide of the mark here. People DO offer strangers condolence and comfort after tragedy, which does help during rough times.
If people directly connected to an accident find sympathetic messages in a thread it a good thing - people like you (and others) may be uncomfortable with it, but stiff bikkies - it's not all about you and your offended sensibilities.
I'm not suggesting we all go and take warm showers together, but just try and be empathetic for one second.
QED
Capt Wafty, I think you and your obdurate views are wide of the mark here. People DO offer strangers condolence and comfort after tragedy, which does help during rough times.
If people directly connected to an accident find sympathetic messages in a thread it a good thing - people like you (and others) may be uncomfortable with it, but stiff bikkies - it's not all about you and your offended sensibilities.
I'm not suggesting we all go and take warm showers together, but just try and be empathetic for one second.
QED
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on tv last night the queen sent her condolences she did not know them either
if its good enough for her its good enough for me
at a time when berevement is happening kind words and the thoughs of others are comforting
sorry cant spell is there a speller checker on pprune
if its good enough for her its good enough for me
at a time when berevement is happening kind words and the thoughs of others are comforting
sorry cant spell is there a speller checker on pprune
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I couldn't disagree more with every word Capt Waffoo has written. If he feels uncomfortable expressing his feelings publicly, I respect his right not to do so. But I don't understand why he should be so critical and patronising about people who do feel able to.
When we hear fellow pilots in our small sector of the industry have been killed at work, expressing sorrow, sympathy for their families and a hope they rest in peace is hardly "an ostentatious public display of sackcloth and ashes". What a patronising remark.
md600driver
I agree with your sentiments, but your first line made me cringe. I'm no republican, but 'the Queen sends condolences' has to be the worst argument for saying it's OK.
And HM's not exactly the best advert for the helicopter industry - good thing her loyal subjects don't follow her example there or lots of us would be out of work!
When we hear fellow pilots in our small sector of the industry have been killed at work, expressing sorrow, sympathy for their families and a hope they rest in peace is hardly "an ostentatious public display of sackcloth and ashes". What a patronising remark.
md600driver
I agree with your sentiments, but your first line made me cringe. I'm no republican, but 'the Queen sends condolences' has to be the worst argument for saying it's OK.
And HM's not exactly the best advert for the helicopter industry - good thing her loyal subjects don't follow her example there or lots of us would be out of work!
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One interesting thing that everyone seems to have overlooked is the possibility of friends and families of those crew members that sometimes visit sites such as these. I know for a fact that the children of a helicopter pilot killed here downunder last year took great comfort after reading all the condolences from other helicopter industry people from around the world.
In times like this we dont know who is reading, the forum. They might not put their names to any posts but if they do drop in lets give them the support of the industry. There is enough bitching and backstabbing in the normal day to day operations, lets leave it there and ensure that in times like this its the positives that come through.
Just my two cents worth. Condolences to those connected to the crew.
Its a small industry and times like this we stick together. Capt Wafoo, maybe its your comments that are uncalled for at this time.
Autorotate.
In times like this we dont know who is reading, the forum. They might not put their names to any posts but if they do drop in lets give them the support of the industry. There is enough bitching and backstabbing in the normal day to day operations, lets leave it there and ensure that in times like this its the positives that come through.
Just my two cents worth. Condolences to those connected to the crew.
Its a small industry and times like this we stick together. Capt Wafoo, maybe its your comments that are uncalled for at this time.
Autorotate.
Last edited by Heliport; 28th Jul 2002 at 11:23.
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I'm with Flare and almost everyone else on this. People post how they feel. They don't always put it perfectly, but that's not the point. If you don't like it, don't do it. I personally rarely post condolences - because I just don't know what to say. Is that better or worse than saying how you feel, or than not not feeling anything because you didn't personally know the people involved? Or are we just all different?
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I and my collegues in the other emergency services see more than our fair share of death and mutilation and to an extent you become 'hardened' to it.
BUT that doesn't stop you feeling sadness and remorse for the family and friends left behind.
If I never offered condolenses to families of my patients I would be seen as cold and heartless.
As is said above we are all members of a fairly elite group in rotary wing flying and I have always felt part of a family around other rotary and fixed wing pilots.
Lets morn or show our sadness and pass our condolenses in whatever way each individual feels appropiate.
LETS STOP BICKERING AND HAVING SLANGING MATCHES AT A TIME LIKE THIS. THERE FOR THE GRACE OF (YOUR) GOD GO YOU OR I.
My thoughts are with those families who have lost loved ones. Remember there are 11 more family without sons, husbands or fathers now.
BUT that doesn't stop you feeling sadness and remorse for the family and friends left behind.
If I never offered condolenses to families of my patients I would be seen as cold and heartless.
As is said above we are all members of a fairly elite group in rotary wing flying and I have always felt part of a family around other rotary and fixed wing pilots.
Lets morn or show our sadness and pass our condolenses in whatever way each individual feels appropiate.
LETS STOP BICKERING AND HAVING SLANGING MATCHES AT A TIME LIKE THIS. THERE FOR THE GRACE OF (YOUR) GOD GO YOU OR I.
My thoughts are with those families who have lost loved ones. Remember there are 11 more family without sons, husbands or fathers now.
Last edited by pilotwolf; 19th Jul 2002 at 18:06.
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I think it's very easy to take a polarised way of looking at this. I would have to say that both 'camps' have legitimate arguments. If I felt that people were posting condolences without even knowing the crews or persons involved then I understand Capt Waffoo's sentiments entirely. I don't think that just working in the same industry is a good enough reason to post condolences. Actually it seems a bit elitist to me as if some people are worth more mention than others. I mean what's the difference between some pilot you never knew and half a million people killed in the Rwanda massacre (to mention just one example)??? Both events are tragic but a little consistency is needed. I do however feel that it is a good opportunity for people who genuinely knew the victims to post condolences or remembrances if they wish to. If I one day don't make it home, frankly I wouldn't give a fiddler's if some pilot I have never met in my life expresses condolences for my tragic demise. I am sure however that family and friends would get a lot of benefit reading genuine expressions of sympathy from my friends and colleagues in the industry if they happened to choose this forum for that expression. At the end of the day each person must choose for themselves what they consider the best course of action. But as I said before, a little consistency is needed. We are afterall humans first, and pilots second. And if you keep honest with yourself, you can't go wrong.
Last edited by Irlandés; 18th Jul 2002 at 13:36.
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Irlandes
If I read that someone who's a pilot is killed in a car crash I'm interested that he was a pilot, maybe wonder where he worked etc but if I didn't know him, it's just another sad car accident.
If I read that a helicopter pilot is killed in a helicopter crash it hits me more, even if I didn't know him personally.
Ilogical? To you maybe, but not to me, and not to most helicopter pilots.
We're a small community and it's just human nature to be hit harder when one of your own is killed doing the same job.
Of course I feel sad about people being killed in Rwanda. But I don't identify personally with them in the same way.
If you can't understand the difference I suspect you're either not a professional pilot, or you're an exception.
And if you're not a professional pilot, please remember Rotorheads is a forum where those of us who are talk to each other, just like we do in the crewroom.
If I read that someone who's a pilot is killed in a car crash I'm interested that he was a pilot, maybe wonder where he worked etc but if I didn't know him, it's just another sad car accident.
If I read that a helicopter pilot is killed in a helicopter crash it hits me more, even if I didn't know him personally.
Ilogical? To you maybe, but not to me, and not to most helicopter pilots.
We're a small community and it's just human nature to be hit harder when one of your own is killed doing the same job.
Of course I feel sad about people being killed in Rwanda. But I don't identify personally with them in the same way.
If you can't understand the difference I suspect you're either not a professional pilot, or you're an exception.
And if you're not a professional pilot, please remember Rotorheads is a forum where those of us who are talk to each other, just like we do in the crewroom.
Last edited by Hoverman; 18th Jul 2002 at 18:09.
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I think this has got to be an "each to their own" view on condolences.
Personally, if I lost someone close to me, helicopter pilot or whatever, I don't think I would take much great comfort from messages of condolences from people who never knew the lost loved one, but hey, thats just me.
If you want to do it, if you don't then don't, simple as.
NigD
Personally, if I lost someone close to me, helicopter pilot or whatever, I don't think I would take much great comfort from messages of condolences from people who never knew the lost loved one, but hey, thats just me.
If you want to do it, if you don't then don't, simple as.
NigD
I suspect Capt wafoo is an (ex) navy pilot???
Because of his nom d'plume. If that is the case I believe I can see where he is coming from. Being ex mil, we tend(ed) to adopt a more casual approach to colleagues when they died doing what they loved best - flying. When you die doing what you enjoy, is there a better way to go? I know you might not have wanted to go then, but that's the chance you take when you get airborne in one of these machines. It comes with the territory!
We used black humour to get us by thus protecting us from the sadness of it all. We never 'gushed' about our feelings for a lost one, it was just fate...ce la vie. Lets all have a drink on his/her expense account. Thats' the way they would have wanted it.
So on reading the first statement on this subject I tended to agree with CW, then changed my mind when Squiffey spoke then changed again later....
I do believe, on the one hand it's just tough luck when you snuff it, but on the other for those outside the profession who may 'drop in', it can be seen as comforting. As long as either side don't question the other, thats the main thing....
Because of his nom d'plume. If that is the case I believe I can see where he is coming from. Being ex mil, we tend(ed) to adopt a more casual approach to colleagues when they died doing what they loved best - flying. When you die doing what you enjoy, is there a better way to go? I know you might not have wanted to go then, but that's the chance you take when you get airborne in one of these machines. It comes with the territory!
We used black humour to get us by thus protecting us from the sadness of it all. We never 'gushed' about our feelings for a lost one, it was just fate...ce la vie. Lets all have a drink on his/her expense account. Thats' the way they would have wanted it.
So on reading the first statement on this subject I tended to agree with CW, then changed my mind when Squiffey spoke then changed again later....
I do believe, on the one hand it's just tough luck when you snuff it, but on the other for those outside the profession who may 'drop in', it can be seen as comforting. As long as either side don't question the other, thats the main thing....