Unusual attitude recovery?

[[email protected]]

Yes, as long as he keeps the rotor loaded with positive G then flying it much like a FW is probably the best option.

[GS-Alpha]

When recovering from inadvertent 60 degrees nose up in an autogyro, just holding back stick will probably end up killing you. At 60 degrees nose up, you are going to very quickly end up with no forward airspeed. You would then start a tail slide with the tail flicking around rapidly, and then suddenly find yourself with about a 60 degree nose down attitude, and quite possibly such a low rotor rpm, that you'll be unable to recover. I would recommend never getting to 60 degrees nose up or 60 degrees nose down. But the standard recovery from unusual attitudes in an autogyro involve removal of power, rolling level and selecting cruise attitude, and then reapplying power and trim. If recovering from nose high, smooth forward cyclic is required to avoid unloading the disc too much. Waiting a moment before reapplying power is also wise, to allow the rotors to stabilise.

Inadveratent 60 degrees nose up in a teetering rotorhead helicopter - again, I don't recommend even being there. Helicopter recovery has already been mentioned so I won't repeat, other than to highlight that stalled control surfaces do not feature in unusual attitude recovery in a helicopter.

Inadvertent 60 degrees nose up in a fixed wing? You most definitely wouldn't 'just turn it into a knife edge' as a first resort! How are you planning on doing that? With ailerons? Are you stalled or close to it? If you are, you've just entered a spin and made things much worse. I do not believe you were taught that action as a technique for recovering from an unusual attitude. You may have been taught to do it to abandon a loop or some other intentionally entered aerobatic manoeuvre, but inadvertent 60 degrees nose up? No way is that a safe first course of action.

If your friend is wondering about a CPL(G) I'm guessing he or she already has a PPL(G). They should therefore already know the recovery technique from unusual attitudes. If they do not, I recommend they book themselves a quick refresher lesson. Recovery on instruments is no different to in VMC, and I cannot imagine you would be expected to recover from any different attitudes than those required in VMC for the PPL.

[[email protected]]

Judging by your website GS Alpha (if I have followed the clue in your moniker) you are certainly the expert when it comes to gyrocopters so N5296s' chum should heed your advice

[n5296s]

@GS-Alpha - many thanks for the detailed reply.

Inadvertent 60 degrees nose up in a fixed wing? You most definitely wouldn't 'just turn it into a knife edge' as a first resort! How are you planning on doing that? With ailerons? Are you stalled or close to it? If you are, you've just entered a spin and made things much worse. I do not believe you were taught that action as a technique for recovering from an unusual attitude. You may have been taught to do it to abandon a loop or some other intentionally entered aerobatic manoeuvre, but inadvertent 60 degrees nose up? No way is that a safe first course of action.

Honestly I think the whole topic is interesting but academic. How are you ever going to be 60° nose-up unintentionally? Ignoring serious lack of attention, the only way is to cross some pretty hefty wake turbulence, which as Crab says is likely to make the unusual attitude the least of your worries.

That said, the technique for sure works, in fixed wing. Given a choice between an early-stage spin (easily recovered, and yes, I have, many times) and a tailslide (who knows what it will do to a non-aerobatic airframe?) I'll take a spin every time. In FW, it's also fine to push the nose down to 0G, whereupon the ailerons will work right down to practically 0 KIAS. (Goes without saying the unusual attitude recovery training also includes spin recovery, which IS a likely "unusual attitude", relatively speaking).

GC unusual attitude recovery training seems distinctly patchy, in my friend's experience. That's why he's asking.

[army_av8r]

Unusual attitude recovery in a GC reminds me a lot of unusual attitudes in powered paragliders, or paramotors. They specifically rely on upflow to maintain wing form/ positive pressure. Very similar to the autorotative properties a GC needs. If i find myself unstable under a fabric wing, i set the controls for symmetry and a generally level attitude (sometimes, this attitude may be in reference to the relative flight path, not the horizon) i then maintain positive G's until i can recover the aircraft to normal flight. The big difference is that a paramotor can suffer a full collapse and still recover, a GC typically cannot. Vey good to have these discussions between professionals, i certainly always learn something from the rumours.

[n5296s]

Judging by your website GS Alpha

I'd love to read more.... any chance of a bigger clue? (OK, got it, wasn't that hard after all).

When I first saw a modern GC, and did my 0.8 hours in one, it seemed like a lot of fun and pretty safe considering it's constantly in autorotation. But now, the more I learn about ways they can kill you, the more I like my 182, and even the R44! I think I'd want about 250 hours of GC time before I'd be willing to solo.

[GS-Alpha]

I wonder whether you are both looking at the same website? I have not got one though...

It would appear you have not been asking about recovery from unusual attitudes after all. If you are thinking you would be happy to enter a spin and then recover, you are just talking about having some aerobatic fun. We are definitely not discussing the same thing, which in my case is a fool proof means to return to normal controlled flight with minimum height loss. Your fixed wing technique definitely does not fit that description.

[[email protected]]

Well this must be a hell of a coincidence then Gyrocopter Flying Lessons in Wiltshire

It's a long time since I did jet training in the 80s but IIRC, in order to get into a spin, you needed more than just a wingdrop in a stall - you needed a lot of rudder to make it go as well. And incipient spin recovery was just centralise everything and let it fly out - I used that a lot when I porked my aeros, never could hack the reverse noddy stall turn.

[GS-Alpha]

Crab, the aircraft you flew was clearly designed to avoid spinning. Why do you think so many people have died trying to recover from a spin if they are so difficult to get into and so easy to recover from? Why does every PPL(A) get taught to pick up a dropped wing using rudder when close to the stall?

Anyone new to any of these aircraft, please completely ignore this thread and listen to your instructor.

[[email protected]]

The Jet Provost was an excellent trainer and was used to teach entry to and recovery from spinning, both incipient and high rotational for many years (but not inverted spinning on the 3A).

Yes, different FW will have different spinning characteristics just as many helicopters have different handling vices.

I'm not saying you can't use rudder to pick up a wing - I'm saying that full pro-spin entry was throttle closed, aft stick and full rudder.

I did also say the incipient spin recovery was straight forward not the full spin recovery.

I'm sure basic PPL(A) stall and spin recovery is slightly more tame than what the RAF did trying to create future fighter pilots. Do they learn high-rotational spin recovery for example?

[ShyTorque]

(but not inverted spinning on the 3A).

But it will spin inverted, believe me!

[CappyJax]

I dont think most people know what 60 degrees nose up looks like. 30 degrees nose up feels pretty darn vertical. You cant see the ground in front of you at 30 degrees in most helicopters. The technique for helicopters nose up is the same for fixed wing. No, not a knife edge, but a gentle bank to allow the nose to drop. This allows for a constant loading of the wings/rotor. You never want to consider pushing the nose over, because in the real scenario, you wont have any feel for the g loading. With adrenaline pumping, your inputs will be exaggerated. If you are in IMC and you unload the rotor, you will see your intruments show you are rolling and you are going to react to the tail rotor rolling the helicopter with opposite cyclic and we all know what happens then. I recommend rolling to the right, because if you are in a tetering system, rolling to the right rolls the rotor in the same direction as TR roll if you do happen to unload the rotor with excessive pitch down inputs. If you fly a semi-rigid system with CW rotation, then roll left. But, come to think of it, I dont know of any.

[[email protected]]

You never want to consider pushing the nose over, because in the real scenario, you wont have any feel for the g loading

I don't believe that to be the case and certainly wouldn't say NEVER push forward since it may well be the safest course of action. Your advice only really applies to teetering head type rotors that are likely to get mast bumping (or worse as you describe) as the rotor is unloaded.

A gentle reselection of the level attitude along with application of power should be safe enough, even in an R22.

If you are disorientated enough to have allowed 30 plus degrees nose up in IMC, going into a turn will just make things far worse - if you have never had the leans or struggled with disorientation in IMC then it will come as a horrible shock.

[CappyJax]

My advice works for all helicopters, and airplanes for that matter. It is just critical in a teetering system, and less so in carbureted airplanes, and carbureted helicopters of any rotor system. You have to ask yourself, why would this technique be taught in airplanes, where immediate risk of death is not a concern, but not taught in helicopters? If you over pitch you risk death, if you over roll, your biggest risk is likely a nose down unusual attitude of which the first step is to roll level.

Disorientation is far from the only cause of unusual attitudes. Autopilot/SAS failure, instrument failure, turbulence, loss of attention, etc. are all far more likely causes. In fact, I would guess that disorientation is the least likely cause of unusual attitudes in proficient instrument pilots. The leans are also not caused from coordinated turns. They are cause from abrupt aircraft and head movements. As far as I can recall, I have never given myself the leans after my initial instrument training. Every time I have had them since, it was a students lack of coordination that gave me the leans, or moderate or greater turbulence. But if you have the leans, it doesn't matter if you are trying to maintain level flight or a turn, both will require ignoring the feelings and relying on your instruments.

I have had many hooded students push the nose forward abruptly in nose high unusual attitudes during training. It is difficult to convey "gentle" when their adrenaline is pumping and they just want out of that attitude. If you were in IMC and in an unusual attitude, your ability to be gentle will be much more compromised by your adrenaline than students in training.

I fly many different types of airplanes and helicopters, and I don't want to have to remember a specific technique for a specific type of aircraft should I find myself in an UA. I would rather just use one technique that is safe and works for all aircraft.

[[email protected]]

Cappyjax - let me get this straight - you are advocating that from a nose-high, low-speed UA in IMC, you should roll into a turn and let the nose drop?

How is that in any way a recovery from the UA? - it is more likely to put you in another, far worse one. At what point do you think a nose down, high speed UA with bank on is a better scenario than the nose high low speed one? That one will kill you far quicker - it's taking you towards the ground at a high RoD.

I don't know how much actual IMC time you have but disorientation is most definitely a big cause of UAs, often following a loss of situational awareness, and the leans can get you at any time, regardless of what you are doing with your head.

Try flying a constant AoB turn IMC at constant speed for more than a minute or two and then roll wings level - now roll into a turn the other way and tell me how comfortable that is.

Like all things aviation, your recovery from a UA will be determined by how well you were trained and, more importantly, how often you practice those recoveries. A well trained and current instrument pilot should easily be able to control their pitch rate during recovery - if you are neither then you shouldn't be in cloud.

[CappyJax]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Cappyjax - let me get this straight - you are advocating that from a nose-high, low-speed UA in IMC, you should roll into a turn and let the nose drop?

Yes

How is that in any way a recovery from the UA? - it is more likely to put you in another, far worse one. At what point do you think a nose down, high speed UA with bank on is a better scenario than the nose high low speed one? That one will kill you far quicker - it's taking you towards the ground at a high RoD.

No, it is not more likely to cause a nose down, high speed, UA with bank. However, that is far more favorable than having the rotor separate from the mast. If you think it is far more likely that a pilot will over control the recovery with a turn to drop the nose, why do you think they are less likely to over control a recovery by lowering the nose? If they can gently lower the nose to recover, then they can certainly roll level at the proper time to prevent a nose low unusual attitude with a banking recovery. However, like I just said, if they can't lower the nose gently, they die immediately, whereas if they can't roll level from my recommended technique, they at least have a second chance to recover.

I don't know how much actual IMC time you have but disorientation is most definitely a big cause of UAs, often following a loss of situational awareness, and the leans can get you at any time, regardless of what you are doing with your head.

Over 1,000 of actual IMC, with around 700 hours of that teaching/mentoring.

IATA statistics show that LOC accidents are a results of 37% weather, 37% aircraft malfunction, 24% engine malfunction, and so on down the line. They don't specifically mention disorientation or the "leans". That might be in the 8% "other" category.

Try flying a constant AoB turn IMC at constant speed for more than a minute or two and then roll wings level - now roll into a turn the other way and tell me how comfortable that is.

Are you saying you can't perform a simple hold without getting the leans? That is a one minute standard rate turn. Turning for more than a minute is not a standard procedure in IFR. This is why holds are racetrack patterns and not circles. Also, you are conflating the leans with disorientation. They are two different things. When I have had the leans, I was not disoriented. I know exactly the position of the aircraft and what needs to be done. A pilot can be disoriented without the leans. You could be confused about your actual heading based on conflicting cockpit indications. You are disoriented, but you don't have the leans.

Like all things aviation, your recovery from a UA will be determined by how well you were trained and, more importantly, how often you practice those recoveries. A well trained and current instrument pilot should easily be able to control their pitch rate during recovery - if you are neither then you shouldn't be in cloud.

Have you ever had an emergency or a very scary movement where you thought you were going to die? Because I have. I remember once after a bird came through the chin bubble of a Long Ranger at 1:30 in the morning, I was hovering for 10 minutes because I couldn't set down after I diverted to the nearest airport. I had so much adrenaline pumping that every tiny movement I made was exaggerated 10 fold. If you think you know how you are going to react in a real situation because you did it in training, you are the one in for a shock. You can't hear anything, you can't feel anything, your mind becomes hyper focused, sometimes on the wrong items, that you may be completely missing important details. You will over control the aircraft no matter how much training you have. I had an actual engine failure in an R22 likely due to carb ice, a long time ago. I was performing maybe 20 - 30 touchdowns a week with students and was very proficient at them. I can tell you that real touchdown was not pretty. I over flared, ballooned, over pitched, ran out of energy and wasn't straight when I bounced along the field. I was lucky that no damage occurred. However, I have heard of pilots with far more skill and experience and an even greater proficiency doing touchdowns in much higher energy rotor system aircraft, and they end up on their sides when they had a real engine failure. They were unlucky.

Let me ask you this. If you were in a nose high turning UA, how would you recover? Would you roll level first then lower the nose, or would you maintain the bank until the nose was lowered, then roll level?

[[email protected]]

Wings level - then select the correct pitch attitude to correct the speed then adjust power and balance.

They all need to happen relatively quickly but smoothly, but it is always wings level first.

Every pilot who has been trained by the Brit Mil will have done the same thing and I suspect exactly the same is taught in civil flying for UA recovery.

Your advice is based on mast-bumping paranoia with Robinson aircraft (none of which are supposed to go IMC anyway) and even on that you would have to unload the rotor very smartly to get to even mast-bumping, let alone rotor separation.

My IMC flying has included a lot more challenging situations than a simple IFR hold (which I also teach) - mixed IMC/VMC day and night over water at low level, doing coastal letdowns to SAR rescue positions and in the mountains so I do have a vague idea about disorientation, the leans and loss of SA.

I didn't say you had to be disorientated to have the leans, I said it was often a precursor to it because of confusion interpreting the cockpit information. Loss of SA can easily lead to the leans IMC if you are hand flying the aircraft.

I have had plenty of scary moments where, despite the adrenaline, my training kicked in and I didn't crash - try hovering/manouevering at night, in and out of cloud and rain, with the rotors 10 feet from the hundreds of feet of vertical cliff and a winchman on 150' of cable when the winch operator calls 'Up Up' as he sees a rock promontory too close to the TR - the potential for the leans, disorientation and being bloody scared is quite high.

It's all about training.

WASP - wings level, attitude selection, speed and power - that way you only have to remember one drill that ALWAYS works.

[CappyJax]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Wings level - then select the correct pitch attitude to correct the speed then adjust power and balance.

They all need to happen relatively quickly but smoothly, but it is always wings level first.

Every pilot who has been trained by the Brit Mil will have done the same thing and I suspect exactly the same is taught in civil flying for UA recovery.

Just because someone teaches it someway doesn't mean it is the best method. Especially the military. They love the KISS method even if it isn't the best way to do things. Might I point out the large number of mass bumping accidents in the US military?

If you are nose high and you roll wings level, you are increasing your vertical component of lift by rolling out first, so it is counter productive. Staying in the bank or increasing back decreases your vertical component of lift thereby lowering the nose WITHOUT pitching forward and unloading the rotor system. When you are nose low, you want to increase the vertical component of lift by rolling level first, then raise the nose. If you raise the nose first while still in the bank, you will tighten your turn and increase the load greater than if level.

Your advice is based on mast-bumping paranoia with Robinson aircraft (none of which are supposed to go IMC anyway) and even on that you would have to unload the rotor very smartly to get to even mast-bumping, let alone rotor separation.

Unusual attitudes are in no way exclusive to flying in IMC.

There are IFR certified helicopters with teetering rotor systems.

My IMC flying has included a lot more challenging situations than a simple IFR hold (which I also teach) - mixed IMC/VMC day and night over water at low level, doing coastal letdowns to SAR rescue positions and in the mountains so I do have a vague idea about disorientation, the leans and loss of SA.

I didn't say you had to be disorientated to have the leans, I said it was often a precursor to it because of confusion interpreting the cockpit information. Loss of SA can easily lead to the leans IMC if you are hand flying the aircraft.

I have had plenty of scary moments where, despite the adrenaline, my training kicked in and I didn't crash - try hovering/manouevering at night, in and out of cloud and rain, with the rotors 10 feet from the hundreds of feet of vertical cliff and a winchman on 150' of cable when the winch operator calls 'Up Up' as he sees a rock promontory too close to the TR - the potential for the leans, disorientation and being bloody scared is quite high.

Putting your self in a challenging situation is NOT THE SAME as having something unexpected happen. You knew what to expect. When you have a real emergency that scares the crap out of you, you will react far differently. Only a fraction of your training remains in your head. You go back to basics. Survival mode if you will. Unless whoever trains you is willing to do something to scare the crap out of you while training, your training will not match in anyway to a real life scenario. Many real life emergencies are far too dangerous to train in the aircraft, which is why we have simulators. But the simulator won't reproduce that rush of adrenaline you feel when you think you are about to die.

It's all about training.

WASP - wings level, attitude selection, speed and power - that way you only have to remember one drill that ALWAYS works.

I'd take someone with a lot of experience before someone with a lot of training any day. Training can help you get out of trouble, but experience helps prevent you from getting into trouble.

[[email protected]]

Just because someone teaches it someway doesn't mean it is the best method

Yet you claim 'your' way is superior to one that is validated by thousands of instructors across the world???

What is the official FAA recovery method?

If you are nose high and you roll wings level, you are increasing your vertical component of lift by rolling out first, so it is counter productive. Staying in the bank or increasing back decreases your vertical component of lift thereby lowering the nose WITHOUT pitching forward and unloading the rotor system.

so, lets take 30 degrees nose up and 20 degrees bank - what is happening to your speed? It is RAPIDLY decreasing.

Maintaining that bank and maintaining that back pressure to load the rotor decays your speed even further.

Increasing your bank and holding that back pressure decays your speed further.

So imagine when you looked in and realised you were in a UA instead of the 90kt cruise you wanted - by the time you get to 30 nose up your speed is likely less than 60 kts, by the time you recognise the problem it is down to 40, by the time you start to take corrective action it is probably 20 and still decaying fast.

Now roll on bank - speed still reducing until the nose gets down to the horizon - so very low to zero airspeed with maybe 30 degrees or more AoB and you are dead already in an unstabilised single.

Alternatively, from the same UA, roll the wings level and put the nose on the horizon (don't lower the collective, in order to maintain loading) - almost immediately the speed stops decaying AND you have the wings level. Now you can select an accelerative attitude to recover to your cruise speed and readjust your altitude back to your assigned level.

In your scenario you just make things worse and are still in a UA, just a different one.

In my scenario, you get back to straight and level flight quickly with minimum height loss and little further chance of disorientation.

Unusual attitudes are in no way exclusive to flying in IMC

but that is what most of this thread is about - IMC recovery from UAs.

There are IFR certified helicopters with teetering rotor systems.

sure but we are talking primarily about single engine unstabilised helicopters - have you got any actual IMC time on them?

We still train Army pilots on the unstabilised Gazelle AH1 on which I only have about 500 hours but single pilot IFR in IMC is common practice on this aircraft - guess what UA recovery technique we use? Even in something as good as a Gazelle, rolling into a low speed turn from 30 degrees nose up is going to put you in a world of pain.

Colleagues of mine teach on the 212 and they use exactly the same UA recovery technique - WASP.

Putting your self in a challenging situation is NOT THE SAME as having something unexpected happen

that's why the situations ARE challenging, exactly because you don't know what is going to happen - if you don't think suddenly finding yourself IMC in the mountains at night in icing conditions isn't an emergency then you are a braver man than me.

I'd take someone with a lot of experience before someone with a lot of training any day. Training can help you get out of trouble, but experience helps prevent you from getting into trouble.

lovely idea but ideally you want both and every pilot has to gain experience somehow - best to train for it so it is easier to deal with it when things do go wrong - and they do, even to very experienced pilots.

[CappyJax]

Have you ever tried a recovery from a nose high attitude with bank?