Unusual attitude recovery?
As stated before, we in Oz have taught that having bank on will allow the nose to come down to the horizon in a very controllable and predictable manner. As it is coming down, gently roll wings level.
Crab is using "reductio ad absurdum" but that scenario is not realistic. From 30 nose up and 30 bank it is going to recover by itself very comfortably if you just hold the controls.
Haven't you ever flown a rotor-over? Or the extreme version of that, a torque turn? In a torque turn even 30 nose up feels like vertical, but the way of getting out of it is by turning, not by poking the nose over, or waiting nose high for a hammerhead and chopping the tail off.
Crab is using "reductio ad absurdum" but that scenario is not realistic. From 30 nose up and 30 bank it is going to recover by itself very comfortably if you just hold the controls.
Haven't you ever flown a rotor-over? Or the extreme version of that, a torque turn? In a torque turn even 30 nose up feels like vertical, but the way of getting out of it is by turning, not by poking the nose over, or waiting nose high for a hammerhead and chopping the tail off.
Have you ever tried a recovery from a nose high attitude with bank?
Crab is using "reductio ad absurdum" but that scenario is not realistic. From 30 nose up and 30 bank it is going to recover by itself very comfortably if you just hold the controls.
The only thing the aircraft will do is drop the nose (flap-forward as opposed to flapback) as the speed washes off.
If you have bank on at that nose up with the speed decaying you are going to slide sideways out of that position if you do nothing with the controls.
I think you guys are confusing recovery from a visual condition with nose up and bank that you have deliberately put yourself into with an IMC recovery from a proper UA.
I have taught wing (rotor) overs, pedal turns, Tq turns and more for many years as well as methods for recovery from those manoeuvres when they go wrong, I have displayed the Lynx (loops, barrel rolls, back flips etc etc) and taught air combat manoeuvres.
I agree that recovery from badly flown wingover is usually to drop the nose whilst continuing the turn but that is a VISUAL recovery not IMC.
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If you do nothing with the controls, you are not attempting a recovery, now are you? Ok, you do it your way because someone told you to. I'll do it my way because I have experience doing it and explained the rationale.
If you do nothing with the controls, you are not attempting a recovery, now are you
I will continue to do it my way because a. it works every time and b. because I have experience of it working for the last 35 years. The Brit Mil has been teaching this technique for donkeys years because of the same reasons - it works every time and has been continually proven to do so.
You didn't say what the official FAA line was on this - if you were following their recommendations rather than ploughing your own furrow based simply on what you like to do, you might have a stronger case.
Oh and you didn't answer the question about IMC time in a single helo.........
From the FAA Instrument Flying Guide
It is for FW but you claim your 'technique' is valid for all aircraft.
Your licensing Authority seems to differ.
Now found the helicopter section
where does your 'method' feature in that? Strangely enough the FAA technique looks just like the Brit Mil one, wonder why that is.......
Recovery from Unusual Attitudes
In moderate unusual attitudes, the pilot can normally
reorient by establishing a level flight indication on the
attitude indicator. However, the pilot should not depend on
this instrument if the attitude indicator is the spillable type,
because its upset limits may have been exceeded or it may
have become inoperative due to mechanical malfunction.
If it is the nonspillable-type instrument and is operating
properly, errors up to 5 degrees of pitch-and-bank may result
and its indications are very difficult to interpret in extreme
attitudes. As soon as the unusual attitude is detected, the
recommended recovery procedures stated in the POH/AFM
should be initiated. If there are no recommended procedures
stated in the POH/AFM, the recovery should be initiated by
reference to the ASI, altimeter, VSI, and turn coordinator.
Nose-High Attitudes
If the airspeed is decreasing, or below the desired airspeed,
increase power (as necessary in proportion to the observed
deceleration), apply forward elevator pressure to lower the
nose and prevent a stall, and correct the bank by applying
coordinated aileron and rudder pressure to level the
miniature aircraft and center the ball of the turn coordinator.
The corrective control applications are made almost
simultaneously, but in the sequence given above. A level
pitch attitude is indicated by the reversal and stabilization of the ASI and altimeter needles. Straight coordinated flight
is indicated by the level miniature aircraft and centered ball
of the turn coordinator.
In moderate unusual attitudes, the pilot can normally
reorient by establishing a level flight indication on the
attitude indicator. However, the pilot should not depend on
this instrument if the attitude indicator is the spillable type,
because its upset limits may have been exceeded or it may
have become inoperative due to mechanical malfunction.
If it is the nonspillable-type instrument and is operating
properly, errors up to 5 degrees of pitch-and-bank may result
and its indications are very difficult to interpret in extreme
attitudes. As soon as the unusual attitude is detected, the
recommended recovery procedures stated in the POH/AFM
should be initiated. If there are no recommended procedures
stated in the POH/AFM, the recovery should be initiated by
reference to the ASI, altimeter, VSI, and turn coordinator.
Nose-High Attitudes
If the airspeed is decreasing, or below the desired airspeed,
increase power (as necessary in proportion to the observed
deceleration), apply forward elevator pressure to lower the
nose and prevent a stall, and correct the bank by applying
coordinated aileron and rudder pressure to level the
miniature aircraft and center the ball of the turn coordinator.
The corrective control applications are made almost
simultaneously, but in the sequence given above. A level
pitch attitude is indicated by the reversal and stabilization of the ASI and altimeter needles. Straight coordinated flight
is indicated by the level miniature aircraft and centered ball
of the turn coordinator.
Your licensing Authority seems to differ.
Now found the helicopter section
Unusual Attitudes
Any maneuver not required for normal helicopter instrument
flight is an unusual attitude and may be caused by any one
or combination of factors, such as turbulence, disorientation,
instrument failure, confusion, preoccupation with flight deck
duties, carelessness in cross-checking, errors in instrument
interpretation, or lack of proficiency in aircraft control. Due
to the instability characteristics of the helicopter, unusual
attitudes can be extremely critical. As soon as an unusual
attitude is detected, make a recovery to straight-and-level
flight as soon as possible with a minimum loss of altitude.
To recover from an unusual attitude, a pilot should correct
bank-and-pitch attitude and adjust power as necessary. All
components are changed almost simultaneously, with little
lead of one over the other. A pilot must be able to perform
this task with and without the attitude indicator. If the
helicopter is in a climbing or descending turn, adjust bank,
pitch, and power. The bank attitude should be corrected
by referring to the turn-and-slip indicator and attitude
indicator. Pitch attitude should be corrected by reference to
the altimeter, airspeed indicator, VSI, and attitude indicator.
Adjust power by referring to the airspeed indicator and
manifold pressure.
Since the displacement of the controls used in recovery from
unusual attitudes may be greater than those used for normal
flight, make careful adjustments as straight-and-level flight
is approached. Cross-check the other instruments closely to
avoid overcontrolling.
Common Errors During Unusual Attitude
Recoveries
1. Failure to make proper pitch correction
2. Failure to make proper bank correction
3. Failure to make proper power correction
4. Overcontrolling pitch and/or bank attitude
5. Overcontrolling power
6. Excessive loss of altitude
Any maneuver not required for normal helicopter instrument
flight is an unusual attitude and may be caused by any one
or combination of factors, such as turbulence, disorientation,
instrument failure, confusion, preoccupation with flight deck
duties, carelessness in cross-checking, errors in instrument
interpretation, or lack of proficiency in aircraft control. Due
to the instability characteristics of the helicopter, unusual
attitudes can be extremely critical. As soon as an unusual
attitude is detected, make a recovery to straight-and-level
flight as soon as possible with a minimum loss of altitude.
To recover from an unusual attitude, a pilot should correct
bank-and-pitch attitude and adjust power as necessary. All
components are changed almost simultaneously, with little
lead of one over the other. A pilot must be able to perform
this task with and without the attitude indicator. If the
helicopter is in a climbing or descending turn, adjust bank,
pitch, and power. The bank attitude should be corrected
by referring to the turn-and-slip indicator and attitude
indicator. Pitch attitude should be corrected by reference to
the altimeter, airspeed indicator, VSI, and attitude indicator.
Adjust power by referring to the airspeed indicator and
manifold pressure.
Since the displacement of the controls used in recovery from
unusual attitudes may be greater than those used for normal
flight, make careful adjustments as straight-and-level flight
is approached. Cross-check the other instruments closely to
avoid overcontrolling.
Common Errors During Unusual Attitude
Recoveries
1. Failure to make proper pitch correction
2. Failure to make proper bank correction
3. Failure to make proper power correction
4. Overcontrolling pitch and/or bank attitude
5. Overcontrolling power
6. Excessive loss of altitude
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You couldn't challenge me with logic, so now you are using vague recommended procedures that don't directly contradict my method. What is the quickest way to return to straight and level with in a nose-high turning UA? Roll level which increases vertical lift, and then gently pitch forward to lower the nose? Or maintain the bank you are in that is already working on lowering the nose, then rolling level after the nose has lowered. Your comments seem to suggest that anything other than straight and level is an unusual attitude. The return to a stable flight condition is more important than straight and level. You can be in straight and level flight and still not have a stablized aircraft, such as is the case if you lower the nose too rapidly and enter a low G situation.
cappyjax - I am starting to think that you have never been IMC in a helicopter and have never experienced disorientation IMC for real because otherwise you wouldn't believe that your 'method' is anything but a recipe for disaster.
You dismiss the FAA advice as vague because it doesn't match your beliefs and are obsessed with the idea that pushing the nose forward will immediately result in low G and mast-bumping.
If you start your recovery by rolling the wings level, you have IMMEDIATELY resolved the 'straight' part of straight and level flight - then all you have to do is adjust attitude and power to achieve the 'level' part.
In your 'method' you continue or increase the turn (that in itself is further disorientating the pilot) which is turning you away from the ATC prescribed or safe heading.
just exactly how is it doing that? You have found yourself in a nose high turning UA - you must have too much aft cyclic to have got the nose high in the first place so how is the bank lowering the nose?
Then you drop the nose (what is there to stop the same adrenaline-fuelled push to low G in your scenario?)increase the speed (possibly too quickly if you have dropped the nose too far). Now you are in a turn, trying to chase the speed, with acceleration and bank further confusing your inner ear and way off heading as well as level. If you get this wrong you are in a descending spiral leading to level bust or worse with rapidly increasing speed (think Vne) and have essentially put yourself into another UA which you will have to recover from by rolling the wings level and bringing the nose up to the horizon (sound like a familiar WASP technique which you could have done in the first place?)
If you roll wings level first and 'increase vertical lift' (in your words) what does it matter? You have the wings level and can instantly assess the situation, cross-checking against your standby instruments in case you have had an AI failure or against your compass if you don't have standby AI (if you put the wings level and the compass is still turning you instantly know you have an AI problem - how do you do that with your method?)
Once you have the wings level, everything else is simple and resettting the desired altitude and assigned heading is quick and easy - I would rather have a level-bust upwards than down but with wings level I can sort that very quickly.
You don't like my logic or my techniques, despite the fact that they are both approved and proven - you prefer your home-spun wisdom that doesn't survive first contact with reality.
I have survived hundreds of hours real IMC in helicopters from unstabilised singles to full IFR twins in a wide variety of demanding military roles - I have been disorientated and in UAs for real and I KNOW what works in the real world. On top of that the hundreds of simulator hours dealing with IMC emergencies has taught me what works and what doesn't.
Simply put - your advocated recovery from a nose high UA IMC in a helicopter is dangerous - go out and try it in cloud if you don't believe me. Under the hood doesn't count btw.
You dismiss the FAA advice as vague because it doesn't match your beliefs and are obsessed with the idea that pushing the nose forward will immediately result in low G and mast-bumping.
If you start your recovery by rolling the wings level, you have IMMEDIATELY resolved the 'straight' part of straight and level flight - then all you have to do is adjust attitude and power to achieve the 'level' part.
In your 'method' you continue or increase the turn (that in itself is further disorientating the pilot) which is turning you away from the ATC prescribed or safe heading.
Or maintain the bank you are in that is already working on lowering the nose
Then you drop the nose (what is there to stop the same adrenaline-fuelled push to low G in your scenario?)increase the speed (possibly too quickly if you have dropped the nose too far). Now you are in a turn, trying to chase the speed, with acceleration and bank further confusing your inner ear and way off heading as well as level. If you get this wrong you are in a descending spiral leading to level bust or worse with rapidly increasing speed (think Vne) and have essentially put yourself into another UA which you will have to recover from by rolling the wings level and bringing the nose up to the horizon (sound like a familiar WASP technique which you could have done in the first place?)
If you roll wings level first and 'increase vertical lift' (in your words) what does it matter? You have the wings level and can instantly assess the situation, cross-checking against your standby instruments in case you have had an AI failure or against your compass if you don't have standby AI (if you put the wings level and the compass is still turning you instantly know you have an AI problem - how do you do that with your method?)
Once you have the wings level, everything else is simple and resettting the desired altitude and assigned heading is quick and easy - I would rather have a level-bust upwards than down but with wings level I can sort that very quickly.
You don't like my logic or my techniques, despite the fact that they are both approved and proven - you prefer your home-spun wisdom that doesn't survive first contact with reality.
I have survived hundreds of hours real IMC in helicopters from unstabilised singles to full IFR twins in a wide variety of demanding military roles - I have been disorientated and in UAs for real and I KNOW what works in the real world. On top of that the hundreds of simulator hours dealing with IMC emergencies has taught me what works and what doesn't.
Simply put - your advocated recovery from a nose high UA IMC in a helicopter is dangerous - go out and try it in cloud if you don't believe me. Under the hood doesn't count btw.
