NPAS 2017 news
That really proves my Point. How could one helicopter, originally tasked to cover Strathclyde only, suddenly be expected to cover the whole of Scotland? A decision clearly not made by anyone with any knowledge of air support. Knowledge of what is not possible, is in many cases actually more important than what is possible. Air support IMHO is a wonderful boon to crime fighting, when done properly, but is well known to bite if undertaken without proper consideration.
I suspect that although our language might be very different, our views no quite so far apart.
TF
I suspect that although our language might be very different, our views no quite so far apart.
TF
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The POLICE have been shown to be incapable of running this national asset. Maybe it needs some non POLICE input to unf*** it.
The HMIC report was utterly fair. Accept it.
That’s what we do on planet earth.
The HMIC report was utterly fair. Accept it.
That’s what we do on planet earth.
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At unit level, I don't think there's any question that the best way to run it is police officers or police staff dealing with the police task in consultation with the pilot providing aviation expertise. As it has been for as long as we all remember.
I also don't think that there's any question that police officers running the whole show has been an unmitigated disaster.
I also don't think that there's any question that police officers running the whole show has been an unmitigated disaster.
NPAS has liquidated over a third of the air support assets, 32 down to 19 aircraft
when we visited NPAS in Wakefield in February 2017, we found that there were only eight aircraft available for operational deployment that day, and one of those had a fault that restricted it to daytime flying only.
RTL, This is pointless, so I will not continue this exchange any longer, but you do seem incapable of understanding that it was the Police that fostered the establishment of Police Aviation in this country, admittedly with the active assistance of two highly professional aviation gentlemen. It was the Police, again acting with the benefit of professional advice that developed the system of UEO led units around the Country, and turned early operations into highly effective independent units, acting very much in a co-ordinated way and with close co-operation. It was One or two CC's acting under Central Govt pressure that turned the excellent Concept of a National Police air wing unto the disaster it became. Caused purely by the sole aim of saving money NOT of increasing efficiency.
I do agree however, that the HMIC report was completely fair. It Highlighted exactly what many of us predicted would happen if we were taken down that road! NPAS management has never been staffed by Police Officers that were experienced in Police Air Support matters, but mainly by Police Officers intent on following Govt financial dictact! Many of us gave more than adequate warning of what the result of their changes would bring, but we were total ignored.
You appear to be incapable of understanding that fact!
TF
I do agree however, that the HMIC report was completely fair. It Highlighted exactly what many of us predicted would happen if we were taken down that road! NPAS management has never been staffed by Police Officers that were experienced in Police Air Support matters, but mainly by Police Officers intent on following Govt financial dictact! Many of us gave more than adequate warning of what the result of their changes would bring, but we were total ignored.
You appear to be incapable of understanding that fact!
TF
Last edited by tigerfish; 15th Dec 2017 at 12:17.
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Whoah there mister rose tinted specs! Whilst I’m sure your back in the day rant has traction at the base you’ve occupied for god knows how long, feel free to get up to speed you angry little man.
You proudly assert that’s its cops who had the idea along with input from a couple of aviators, oversimplification I think. UEO’s? What, the same ones that were never there and got the PC’s do the donkey work or piss off back to division?
You remember division don’t you? Where real Police work happens. Mention being returned to unit and watch a TFO literally **** themselves. You’ve feathered your nest alright, now stand and shout from the sidelines that it’s buggered.
GENIUS.
I’m just waiting for the right job and I’m gone, not because of the job, but because mis guided pilot wannabes that created their cushy little world and will defend till death.
You proudly assert that’s its cops who had the idea along with input from a couple of aviators, oversimplification I think. UEO’s? What, the same ones that were never there and got the PC’s do the donkey work or piss off back to division?
You remember division don’t you? Where real Police work happens. Mention being returned to unit and watch a TFO literally **** themselves. You’ve feathered your nest alright, now stand and shout from the sidelines that it’s buggered.
GENIUS.
I’m just waiting for the right job and I’m gone, not because of the job, but because mis guided pilot wannabes that created their cushy little world and will defend till death.
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How Unnecessarily Rude
Rotate too Late you should be ashamed of your tone and language - plain RUDE.
I hope you find the job you are looking for very soon because it is clear that the one you have is unsuitable. An apology would be most appropriate.
ANOrak
I hope you find the job you are looking for very soon because it is clear that the one you have is unsuitable. An apology would be most appropriate.
ANOrak
Perhaps time to take the toilet tube rolls off your eyes RTL and take a wider look.
Police air support was not invented in the UK but generally the ancients in the UK police market took the disparate practices in the USA [where units come and go quite NPAS like at the whim of senior officers and politicians] and improved on them. They could have looked in greater detail at European models of course but we all know that Brits do not 'do' foreign languages so its the USA or nothing.
What they originally produced were a series of daylight only flying clubs that in the main evolved into 24/7 public service that provided a service that was grass roots orientated. But many did not produce the goods and as you say looked after their own backs to the detriment of the industry as a whole. What was good was pretty good but there were enough problems for ACPO as it then was to seize upon. The politicians naturally went for the jugular.
The fault lies with NPAS, yes, but it also lies with just a few at unit level who gave ACPO a chance to get in and create havoc.
The NW ASG was one of the best but the infighting there that broke up an operation that used the same aircraft and maintenance set up - showing signs of a perfect regional "NPAS" The inability to make real use of the fixed wings they had.... sorry Cheshire had ..... and other failings ultimately left the whole set-up wide open for NPAS.
I may be unfair in singling out NW but it is the clearest one.
Just one detail of infighting that was repeated across the board by the rank and file and that stopped those growing regional ASGs getting their act together after all the work put in by those that went before.
Police air support was not invented in the UK but generally the ancients in the UK police market took the disparate practices in the USA [where units come and go quite NPAS like at the whim of senior officers and politicians] and improved on them. They could have looked in greater detail at European models of course but we all know that Brits do not 'do' foreign languages so its the USA or nothing.
What they originally produced were a series of daylight only flying clubs that in the main evolved into 24/7 public service that provided a service that was grass roots orientated. But many did not produce the goods and as you say looked after their own backs to the detriment of the industry as a whole. What was good was pretty good but there were enough problems for ACPO as it then was to seize upon. The politicians naturally went for the jugular.
The fault lies with NPAS, yes, but it also lies with just a few at unit level who gave ACPO a chance to get in and create havoc.
The NW ASG was one of the best but the infighting there that broke up an operation that used the same aircraft and maintenance set up - showing signs of a perfect regional "NPAS" The inability to make real use of the fixed wings they had.... sorry Cheshire had ..... and other failings ultimately left the whole set-up wide open for NPAS.
I may be unfair in singling out NW but it is the clearest one.
Just one detail of infighting that was repeated across the board by the rank and file and that stopped those growing regional ASGs getting their act together after all the work put in by those that went before.
Last edited by PANews; 15th Dec 2017 at 17:25. Reason: typo
The NW ASG was one of the best
North Wales were hardly one of the best, operating 0700 to 0300, flying 800 hours a year, mainly looking for lost sheep(
) on a budget of £2.1M(1.5% of the Force budget), compared with GMP, operating 24H, 1200hrs, £1.7M(0.3% of the Force budget.As for the NWAOG, well, having been part of it, that was just a foretaste of NPAS and what would be. And they shut down Merseyside to form it.
Hargreaves I do not believe anyone could make a call on that any more than they can predict Lotto!
Mighty Gem it was North West Air Operations Group, that you were part of ....
It was going so well [in a rustic sort of way] but lost direction. It was probably over-resourced [if such things can be over-resourced] but from the outside it was a good model to develop. You probably have a very different view as you were there. Suffice to say it appeared OK where others did not.
Lord HH of course threw Merseyside into the bin as his 'contribution' to NPAS just as Hampshire was binned in another CC/ACPO demonstration of willing .... although they were as different as chalk and cheese.
Mighty Gem it was North West Air Operations Group, that you were part of ....
It was going so well [in a rustic sort of way] but lost direction. It was probably over-resourced [if such things can be over-resourced] but from the outside it was a good model to develop. You probably have a very different view as you were there. Suffice to say it appeared OK where others did not.
Lord HH of course threw Merseyside into the bin as his 'contribution' to NPAS just as Hampshire was binned in another CC/ACPO demonstration of willing .... although they were as different as chalk and cheese.
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Whoah there mister rose tinted specs! Whilst I’m sure your back in the day rant has traction at the base you’ve occupied for god knows how long, feel free to get up to speed you angry little man.
You proudly assert that’s its cops who had the idea along with input from a couple of aviators, oversimplification I think. UEO’s? What, the same ones that were never there and got the PC’s do the donkey work or piss off back to division?
You remember division don’t you? Where real Police work happens. Mention being returned to unit and watch a TFO literally **** themselves. You’ve feathered your nest alright, now stand and shout from the sidelines that it’s buggered.
GENIUS.
I’m just waiting for the right job and I’m gone, not because of the job, but because mis guided pilot wannabes that created their cushy little world and will defend till death.
You proudly assert that’s its cops who had the idea along with input from a couple of aviators, oversimplification I think. UEO’s? What, the same ones that were never there and got the PC’s do the donkey work or piss off back to division?
You remember division don’t you? Where real Police work happens. Mention being returned to unit and watch a TFO literally **** themselves. You’ve feathered your nest alright, now stand and shout from the sidelines that it’s buggered.
GENIUS.
I’m just waiting for the right job and I’m gone, not because of the job, but because mis guided pilot wannabes that created their cushy little world and will defend till death.
RTL, as this is a mostly anonymous forum, it is difficult to know exactly what experience a poster has, and assumptions are all to easy to reinforce when you find what you are looking for.
I don't think I have ever met Tigerfish, but I can't be sure. I'm confident that I've never met you, but can't be sure.
What I am sure about, is that your opinion of the Police in Police Air Support is based on narrow recent exposure to perhaps one or two units.
Those of us lucky enough to have sat alongside members of lots of different units, flying, working, eating and drinking with them, got a better feel for the overall measure of how the business worked.
Please don't taint everyone from Air Support in its golden years (1995-2010 imho) as being out of touch and no use at their job.
Senior Police officers have decided to allow the service to wither and die. That's not the fault of the cops or inspectors at the coal face.
I had to resolve an issue caused by a police officer who committed an offence, causing damage to the air support asset of another force. I didn't then decide that all of his force, or even all of his ASU were a danger, it was one guy, who was indeed sent back to his division, to shake hands with padlocks on the cold dark nights.
There were, and probably still are, some really good guys out there, but they are not the people in charge of this clusfertuck called NPAS.
It was going so well
I was with Merseyside for 15 years. Just prior to the shutdown and the start of NWAOG, I made a 45 minute dvd covering the previous 18 months, of various vehicle pursuits, foot pursuits, offender searches, arrests, cannabis farms and general tales of daring do featuring me and my crew. In the following two years until I retired, I might have made 20 minutes if I was lucky.
Things went downhill very fast.
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So Mightygem who was there has an opinion you Pan who wasn’t seem to have been fed a spoonful.
Perceptions are everything in this job clearly, all it serves to do is undermine your point of view when you are corrected by those that actually served there. Once again, taking the service away from those who are happy to crow about a “world class service” (ive seen the posters!). Get out and actually use your eyes and ears.
Willing amateurs at best.
Perceptions are everything in this job clearly, all it serves to do is undermine your point of view when you are corrected by those that actually served there. Once again, taking the service away from those who are happy to crow about a “world class service” (ive seen the posters!). Get out and actually use your eyes and ears.
Willing amateurs at best.
Let's put a perspective on this.
NPAS was set up with the best intentions and 'most' of the board chipped in to make it a success.
But within a very short period it was apparent it wasn't going to work for two primary reasons.
The maths didn't make sense. A £15 million pound saving was required and this was from an an existing service which couldn't sustain such a hit. The politicains target was always wide of the mark.
NPAS is led by someone who has little or no understanding of an airforce and the job it is designed to do.
ALL the problems (allegedly) come from the Director of NPAS. He keeps the PCC and the CC of West Yorks in the dark using smoke and mirrors......and voila, they are where they are today.
To make an airforce work, the controlling authority need to understand - availability, resources, staffing, training, running costs - and that's just the aviation side!
He has ZERO understanding of that. [No problem - draft in someone who does. Enter - director of aviation]. What has he done?
Two people run NPAS, one is a cop and the other a pilot - one thinks he knows everything and runs around doing all the wrong things and making all the wrong decisions and the other actually knows everything but hears nothing, sees nothing and speaks nothing.
Most forces have picked up on this and are now factoring this into their daily ops. They simply circumvent NPAS as a matter of course. I have spoken to many of them. NPAS is becoming insignificant from the bobby on the beat's perspective.
Maybe this is what will shape the NPAS of the future - A strategic response vehicle only.
NPAS was set up with the best intentions and 'most' of the board chipped in to make it a success.
But within a very short period it was apparent it wasn't going to work for two primary reasons.
The maths didn't make sense. A £15 million pound saving was required and this was from an an existing service which couldn't sustain such a hit. The politicains target was always wide of the mark.
NPAS is led by someone who has little or no understanding of an airforce and the job it is designed to do.
ALL the problems (allegedly) come from the Director of NPAS. He keeps the PCC and the CC of West Yorks in the dark using smoke and mirrors......and voila, they are where they are today.
To make an airforce work, the controlling authority need to understand - availability, resources, staffing, training, running costs - and that's just the aviation side!
He has ZERO understanding of that. [No problem - draft in someone who does. Enter - director of aviation]. What has he done?
Two people run NPAS, one is a cop and the other a pilot - one thinks he knows everything and runs around doing all the wrong things and making all the wrong decisions and the other actually knows everything but hears nothing, sees nothing and speaks nothing.
Most forces have picked up on this and are now factoring this into their daily ops. They simply circumvent NPAS as a matter of course. I have spoken to many of them. NPAS is becoming insignificant from the bobby on the beat's perspective.
Maybe this is what will shape the NPAS of the future - A strategic response vehicle only.
RTL
Part of the point here is that I was expecting a contrary viewpoint on my observation.
Anyone that pops in and out of an operation can only get a flavour, a drift, of what might be going on. A difference here is that you are recounting the here and now of your unit (wherever that is) and not necessarily all of NPAS. What I was reflecting was an opinion of 1990s police air support based on information from all of the contingent parts of the NW Police air operations and others besides, subject to the usual caveat about what I might be told as an equal and later as an outsider journalist. The differences between pre and post retirement were very obvious in some quarters - but not all.
I can still have ‘those’ conversations with many (on the unspoken assumption that it stays in my head until second sourced).
There is no set thing called police air support and internationally there are massive differences in operational expectation.
I just cannot yet work out which National model NPAS favours or thinks it has to follow. It certainly is not what was planned or pronounced 5 years ago or what was around 5 years ago.
Part of the point here is that I was expecting a contrary viewpoint on my observation.
Anyone that pops in and out of an operation can only get a flavour, a drift, of what might be going on. A difference here is that you are recounting the here and now of your unit (wherever that is) and not necessarily all of NPAS. What I was reflecting was an opinion of 1990s police air support based on information from all of the contingent parts of the NW Police air operations and others besides, subject to the usual caveat about what I might be told as an equal and later as an outsider journalist. The differences between pre and post retirement were very obvious in some quarters - but not all.
I can still have ‘those’ conversations with many (on the unspoken assumption that it stays in my head until second sourced).
There is no set thing called police air support and internationally there are massive differences in operational expectation.
I just cannot yet work out which National model NPAS favours or thinks it has to follow. It certainly is not what was planned or pronounced 5 years ago or what was around 5 years ago.
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For the pilots and crews, it is what it is. Like any organisation, the workers do what the managers tell them to. Is it better or worse now? From the coal face...... It doesn’t really matter!! I left in 2010, I talk to old sweats and what they tell you in private vs public are 2 different stories.
However
I would go back tomorrow if the circumstances were right.
The military has changed beyond recognition, but it’s still popular. As are all other emergency services jobs. NPAS is not exclusive in how managers are selected
However
I would go back tomorrow if the circumstances were right.
The military has changed beyond recognition, but it’s still popular. As are all other emergency services jobs. NPAS is not exclusive in how managers are selected