NPAS 2017 news
H99. You might be right, - but how many have tried it? Ive never seen any requests for donations to the Police Helicopter!
My feeling is that the Criminal has suddenly realised that are are no bobbies on the beat any more, and in many area no air cover either, so he's started back up to his old tricks again. Thefts of motorcycles have shot up around here, and muggings too.
Tigerfish
My feeling is that the Criminal has suddenly realised that are are no bobbies on the beat any more, and in many area no air cover either, so he's started back up to his old tricks again. Thefts of motorcycles have shot up around here, and muggings too.
Tigerfish
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but ask them to pay more tax to help fund dementia care (for example), or to support the police helicopter and you will get a very different level of eagerness.
sums don't add up
The problem goes deeper than that. The operational advantage of the system prior to the NPAS cuts was based on the credo that "any officer can request Helicopter support" just as he/she could request the attendance of the Police Dog. As soon as the ASU evaluated the call, deciding whether they could provide the service required, they would deploy. Normally the arrival on scene would be less than 20 minutes max. NB 20 minutes from the commencement of the incident, NOT 20 minutes from the call being made.
If the latter criteria were followed then there was a reasonable chance of a successful outcome.
NOW with the jam spread so thin, and distances so great, an effective response is practically impossible, so less and less calls for helicopter assistance are being made. What's the point?
By the time the Helicopter reaches the scene, it will be much too late to help. So today the Helicopter is really only of use in pre planned operations such as marches and demonstrations etc.
Yes before anyone says that is not the case, I would say that there will always be exceptions, especially when the incident is fairly close to a base, but the cold hard truth is that 19 helicopters can never hope to provide the level of service to the Guy in trouble on the ground that 33 could. And remember the guy on the ground can feel very alone and unsupported at times.
Tigerfish
If the latter criteria were followed then there was a reasonable chance of a successful outcome.
NOW with the jam spread so thin, and distances so great, an effective response is practically impossible, so less and less calls for helicopter assistance are being made. What's the point?
By the time the Helicopter reaches the scene, it will be much too late to help. So today the Helicopter is really only of use in pre planned operations such as marches and demonstrations etc.
Yes before anyone says that is not the case, I would say that there will always be exceptions, especially when the incident is fairly close to a base, but the cold hard truth is that 19 helicopters can never hope to provide the level of service to the Guy in trouble on the ground that 33 could. And remember the guy on the ground can feel very alone and unsupported at times.
Tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 11th Dec 2017 at 15:40.
Not sure if that has been amended since.
Short of that the answer is no..
An individual force cant.
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Tigerfish
I couldn’t agree more. Very well said!
The recent rationalisation is utterly stupid, until you appreciate that there is only one aim. Cutting cost. Absolutely nothing else. But the REAL stupidity is that it doesn’t even achieve that!
Crackers!
I couldn’t agree more. Very well said!
The recent rationalisation is utterly stupid, until you appreciate that there is only one aim. Cutting cost. Absolutely nothing else. But the REAL stupidity is that it doesn’t even achieve that!
Crackers!
It's not 'just' the money saving directive, it's what you do with what you got!
Maybe the costs mean one has to make the remaining 19 aircraft work harder or more efficiently and this is where the regime let's itself down.
The vast majority of the board and the overseers are cops. Cops are good, we all know that and very efficient they are too when it comes to traditional policing. BUT this is not and never has been a traditional means of policing. The aviation world is complex, buying maintaining and operating the right aircraft to carry out this policing is complex and requires experts in the field.
How many aviation epxerts are left on the NPAS board - ONE. He knows who he is. He is responsible for providing the right technical information and the most effective operational inputs to make the 'model' work.
Rumour has it he is just waiting out his time and his pension before he retires and his inputs are virtually non existent these days....is that right I wonder.
4 x FW is an example where the aviation expert has been derelict in his duty, I would suggest.
It must be wearing having to keep his head above water amongst all those cops.
Maybe the costs mean one has to make the remaining 19 aircraft work harder or more efficiently and this is where the regime let's itself down.
The vast majority of the board and the overseers are cops. Cops are good, we all know that and very efficient they are too when it comes to traditional policing. BUT this is not and never has been a traditional means of policing. The aviation world is complex, buying maintaining and operating the right aircraft to carry out this policing is complex and requires experts in the field.
How many aviation epxerts are left on the NPAS board - ONE. He knows who he is. He is responsible for providing the right technical information and the most effective operational inputs to make the 'model' work.
Rumour has it he is just waiting out his time and his pension before he retires and his inputs are virtually non existent these days....is that right I wonder.
4 x FW is an example where the aviation expert has been derelict in his duty, I would suggest.
It must be wearing having to keep his head above water amongst all those cops.
NPAS seem to think that they've saved £17M rather than the £6M stated in the report, and the £7M that I had estimated.
News | NPAS
running costs have been significantly reduced from £55 to £38m
The only press coverage that I could find:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-england-wales
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-england-wales
Ch Con Dee Collins, air operations certificate holder for NPAS, said: “The journey to having a national police air service has been challenging for NPAS and we have learnt a lot along the way
“To deliver stretching national efficiencies, we have sought to change the expectations of police forces about the role of air support in policing and to do so has been a difficult process.”
Bloody criminal.....
TC, I am a little surprised by your comments, because I know you quite well, and have a great deal of respect for your wide experience of operational Air Support. But we are talking about POLICE Air support here no more & no less. We have always had great respect for the knowledge and experience of our professional experts (Our Pilots). But this was always and must remain a Police operation, for after all it is the Police service that picks up the bill at the end of the day.
HOWEVER, that said, to have a board with only one professional Pilot in a position of influence is I agree completely and demonstrably wrong. No wonder the wheel is coming off.
IMHO, the only way out of this mess is to call a halt. Reposition all 19 Aircraft closest to the main centres of population and therefor crime and ensure that the message goes out to operational commanders, - Your air support is back, now make use of it to lock up those ******ers that are wrecking your crime stats. Sadly I will be the first to acknowledge that that will leave many semi and rural areas uncovered until such time as we can rebuild the service.
Much brainier minds than mine will have to work out how that can be funded but it is clear that the forces that do not get a service must be relieved. This exercise of tying to run NPAS purely as an accountants model simply will not work. The criminal, who must be the target doesn't play by the accountants rules and the service has to get wise to that, or give up all together. I say again that by 2008 we led the World in Police Aviation, - now we are nowhere!
OK, I'm a wrinkly now, but I do know what makes the service tick, and its not Politics and its not accountants! Mutter mutter, - Bah!
TF
HOWEVER, that said, to have a board with only one professional Pilot in a position of influence is I agree completely and demonstrably wrong. No wonder the wheel is coming off.
IMHO, the only way out of this mess is to call a halt. Reposition all 19 Aircraft closest to the main centres of population and therefor crime and ensure that the message goes out to operational commanders, - Your air support is back, now make use of it to lock up those ******ers that are wrecking your crime stats. Sadly I will be the first to acknowledge that that will leave many semi and rural areas uncovered until such time as we can rebuild the service.
Much brainier minds than mine will have to work out how that can be funded but it is clear that the forces that do not get a service must be relieved. This exercise of tying to run NPAS purely as an accountants model simply will not work. The criminal, who must be the target doesn't play by the accountants rules and the service has to get wise to that, or give up all together. I say again that by 2008 we led the World in Police Aviation, - now we are nowhere!
OK, I'm a wrinkly now, but I do know what makes the service tick, and its not Politics and its not accountants! Mutter mutter, - Bah!
TF
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TF
I agree with you that it's a police service but not only does it need more aviators making decisions, it needs police officers with some knowledge of the job and how it works in reality. I agreed with you when you first stood up and said it wouldn't work and I agree with most of what you say now but to leave rural areas without air support is not the answer.
I agree with you that it's a police service but not only does it need more aviators making decisions, it needs police officers with some knowledge of the job and how it works in reality. I agreed with you when you first stood up and said it wouldn't work and I agree with most of what you say now but to leave rural areas without air support is not the answer.
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TF
I agree with you that it's a police service but not only does it need more aviators making decisions, it needs police officers with some knowledge of the job and how it works in reality. I agreed with you when you first stood up and said it wouldn't work and I agree with most of what you say now but to leave rural areas without air support is not the answer.
I agree with you that it's a police service but not only does it need more aviators making decisions, it needs police officers with some knowledge of the job and how it works in reality. I agreed with you when you first stood up and said it wouldn't work and I agree with most of what you say now but to leave rural areas without air support is not the answer.
I don't think anyone believes that the real aim was to do better for less money.
MaxR, I think that you have misunderstood what caused me to say what I did. Believe me as a rural bobby and later a Rural Sgt, nothing would please me more to see the rural communities getting the quick cover they pay taxes for! But we must live life as it is.
NPAS has liquidated over a third of the air support assets, 32 down to 19 aircraft, and a similar number of the bases.
I really do believe that NPAS is now in terminal decline, so if anything is to be salvaged from the ashes, then those that will have to effect the re-build, will have to cope with what remains. That means living in the real world and basing the remaining assets in the locations of greatest demand. That does not mean for one minute that if another Hungerford, or other serious incident occurred they would not attend, - of course not. But initially, not as a routine responsibility. Then as the recognition of the value of real operational Air support returns, then the new body can start to re build itself closer to what is a true Police National Air Support Service.
We can not give up on this. Too much blood toil and tears were spent in the early years to give up now. Besides who wants to let the criminal win?
TF
NPAS has liquidated over a third of the air support assets, 32 down to 19 aircraft, and a similar number of the bases.
I really do believe that NPAS is now in terminal decline, so if anything is to be salvaged from the ashes, then those that will have to effect the re-build, will have to cope with what remains. That means living in the real world and basing the remaining assets in the locations of greatest demand. That does not mean for one minute that if another Hungerford, or other serious incident occurred they would not attend, - of course not. But initially, not as a routine responsibility. Then as the recognition of the value of real operational Air support returns, then the new body can start to re build itself closer to what is a true Police National Air Support Service.
We can not give up on this. Too much blood toil and tears were spent in the early years to give up now. Besides who wants to let the criminal win?
TF
Last edited by tigerfish; 14th Dec 2017 at 08:09.
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So where do you suggest the lines are drawn, bearing in mind that you are effectively saying that if you live in Birmingham, you’re more important than if you live in Shrewsbury.....?
And how about removing the Air service from police control? Therefore keeping the decision making about the aviation aspect away from the politically driven decisions that have caused these issues.
By remaining in the polices hands, they have no one to blame for this mess than themselves.....
And how about removing the Air service from police control? Therefore keeping the decision making about the aviation aspect away from the politically driven decisions that have caused these issues.
By remaining in the polices hands, they have no one to blame for this mess than themselves.....
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Come on Rotate... He's not suggesting you're more important if you live in Birmingham. He's saying a helicopter in Birmingham will see a lot more crime than the same helicopter being based in Shrewsbury, so where is it better utilised until there is a plan for rebuilding a comprehensive fleet.
And clearly you need the better heads from both the police and aviation experts involved in the decision making process.
Last I heard then next great plan being considered was 3 x 139's at N.Weald with the fixed wing, it'll be one typhoon with full U.K. Coverage before you know it
And clearly you need the better heads from both the police and aviation experts involved in the decision making process.
Last I heard then next great plan being considered was 3 x 139's at N.Weald with the fixed wing, it'll be one typhoon with full U.K. Coverage before you know it
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Dude, it’s not a dig, but if you are dealing with a society that gives no quarter and accepts no compromise because they are the center of the universe (Facebook tells them that!) then there would be very serious questions to be asked regarding the use of assets post an incident where the outcome is open to question.
Are you seriously telling me that a chief constable would sit there a say, yep, no problem I’m happy to stand up a make a decision that could be interpreted as this part of the country does not deserve the same service as that part of the country.
Not very national I would suggest.
Helicopters should not be in the hands of the police. The SAR model or the air ambulance model where an aircraft is effectively leased to the organisation proves there are better ways.
Every moment that the HQ in Wakefield spend on trying to get this “new”(seven years) organisation on track within the constraints placed upon it is time distracted from frontline policing.
So let’s admit, accept it hasn’t worked and take the time to re plan, reassess and start anew, no blame, just do it properly.
Meh.
Are you seriously telling me that a chief constable would sit there a say, yep, no problem I’m happy to stand up a make a decision that could be interpreted as this part of the country does not deserve the same service as that part of the country.
Not very national I would suggest.
Helicopters should not be in the hands of the police. The SAR model or the air ambulance model where an aircraft is effectively leased to the organisation proves there are better ways.
Every moment that the HQ in Wakefield spend on trying to get this “new”(seven years) organisation on track within the constraints placed upon it is time distracted from frontline policing.
So let’s admit, accept it hasn’t worked and take the time to re plan, reassess and start anew, no blame, just do it properly.
Meh.
RTL, - Are you seriously suggesting that the Police should not be in control of POLICE AIR SUPPORT? If so what planet do you come from?
From day 1 of the Police use of helicopters we have fully accepted not only will the service ONLY employ fully qualified pilots with a minimum of 1,500 hours relevant helicopter experience. We have always accepted the captain's decision in all matters of flight safety whilst both considering and in the execution of the task. But it is, and must remain a Police Aircraft. Therefore it will be for the Police duty crew in consultation with the Pilot to decide whether any request for service will be accommodated.
Chief Constables do not make decisions on such matters, they are not qualified. Policy matters are another issue completely and will result in certain guidelines being issued to units. However All Police Officers howsoever engaged in their duty, have a responsibility under the Crown for the protection of life and property. I know of no Officer who in receipt of a request to attend a serious incident would refuse to assist, because no prior agreement to pay was in place. (Flight Safety matters always taking precedence).
I have no other issues that bear on such considerations and do not subscribe to facebook or another social media, Neither do I consider that any one part of the UK is more important than any other. What is more important to any Police Air support unit, is where they can be located to provide the best service to the area of greatest crime activity. That is what a POLICE aircraft is supposed to do!
I do accept though your questioning of whether Wakefield is the best placed location to manage the National Picture. Personally I would prefer a system of Regional centres working to a National Administrative Policy.
TF
From day 1 of the Police use of helicopters we have fully accepted not only will the service ONLY employ fully qualified pilots with a minimum of 1,500 hours relevant helicopter experience. We have always accepted the captain's decision in all matters of flight safety whilst both considering and in the execution of the task. But it is, and must remain a Police Aircraft. Therefore it will be for the Police duty crew in consultation with the Pilot to decide whether any request for service will be accommodated.
Chief Constables do not make decisions on such matters, they are not qualified. Policy matters are another issue completely and will result in certain guidelines being issued to units. However All Police Officers howsoever engaged in their duty, have a responsibility under the Crown for the protection of life and property. I know of no Officer who in receipt of a request to attend a serious incident would refuse to assist, because no prior agreement to pay was in place. (Flight Safety matters always taking precedence).
I have no other issues that bear on such considerations and do not subscribe to facebook or another social media, Neither do I consider that any one part of the UK is more important than any other. What is more important to any Police Air support unit, is where they can be located to provide the best service to the area of greatest crime activity. That is what a POLICE aircraft is supposed to do!
I do accept though your questioning of whether Wakefield is the best placed location to manage the National Picture. Personally I would prefer a system of Regional centres working to a National Administrative Policy.
TF
