Well - what would YOU do??
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Well - what would YOU do??
A couple of months ago I was flying home 'oop North, and was in the Stoke on Trent area. There was a very strong westerly wind blowing. I was listening out on Manch, when I heard an R44 asking for assistance as he was low on fuel, and was looking for a suitable airfield to land at. He was given a vector and distance to Barton, but had to decline it as at his current groundspeed he would not have had enough fuel to make it.
Eventually they settled on Woodford. Manch contacted them, and put the R44 over to them. (I don't think that Woodford actually accepted any "visiting" aircraft, but agreed to this due to the circumstances). Well we flipped over onto Woodford and listened out. The R44 made it Ok in the end, though he didnt sound to have much gas left when he arrived.
Now..my co-pilot on the day (a QFI (H)) was not overly impressed with this, and pointed out that the pilot would now be subject to a severe nose-poking from the CAA. He said if it was him, he would have just found himself a nice flat field to land in, caught a bus home and come back with a few jerry cans of juice. Nobody would be any the wiser, he would have no forms to fill in, no questions to answer, and he wouldn't have run the risk of actually running out of fuel before he reached Woodford. And perhaps the inconvenience would have made him be a bit more careful in future.
At first I poo-poohed this, saying what a good boy he had been, declaring his troubles and looking for help, etc etc. . However afterwards, I could see that he did have a point, especially the running out of fuel bit.
So gentlemen, ...who would have landed, and who would have carried on??
Eventually they settled on Woodford. Manch contacted them, and put the R44 over to them. (I don't think that Woodford actually accepted any "visiting" aircraft, but agreed to this due to the circumstances). Well we flipped over onto Woodford and listened out. The R44 made it Ok in the end, though he didnt sound to have much gas left when he arrived.
Now..my co-pilot on the day (a QFI (H)) was not overly impressed with this, and pointed out that the pilot would now be subject to a severe nose-poking from the CAA. He said if it was him, he would have just found himself a nice flat field to land in, caught a bus home and come back with a few jerry cans of juice. Nobody would be any the wiser, he would have no forms to fill in, no questions to answer, and he wouldn't have run the risk of actually running out of fuel before he reached Woodford. And perhaps the inconvenience would have made him be a bit more careful in future.
At first I poo-poohed this, saying what a good boy he had been, declaring his troubles and looking for help, etc etc. . However afterwards, I could see that he did have a point, especially the running out of fuel bit.
So gentlemen, ...who would have landed, and who would have carried on??
Concur with your QHI; my initial reaction to the first para was "why an airfield?". Almost FW mentality of pressing on to a long strip of tarmac, whilst watching the fuel gauge wind on down. Wonder how many suitable open paddocks he must have flown over on the way to Woodford. Airmanship may be a questionable point, ISTM there would be ample opportunity to avoid CAA's wrath by landing ASAP. Last point, what does the R44 flight manual say when low fuel/warning light/indication occurs?
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Hard to judge the individual, not knowing distances and fuel states, but requesting assistance is a good idea. Continuing on to an airfield to make an emergency by avoiding inconvenience is not a good idea.
What would I do? I would continue to the best airfield before fuel became an issue. I don't know what the R44 has for a fuel gauge, but knowing what your fuel should be at points along the way should always be a concern. If headwind increases, watch fuel much more carefully. If at any time I thought I didn't have the fuel to make an airfield and safe landing, then and only then would I go for a field.
Funny thing about this, it happened to me last week. 116nm with 1 hr 40 min to dry tanks, cruise speed of 125 kts and headwind of 30kts for first half and 15kts for last half. I know, it looks close already. Problem is winds at first two airfields were out of limits for shut down. Next problem, the headwind averaged 40kts for first two thirds of trip. Third problem, only other airport along the way was 400' & 1/2 mile vis, with IFR traffic. My only option, declare low fuel and request special VFR (that way I don't have to wait for IFR traffic). Fueled up, flew 15nm home.
The problem I have with this discussion is the fear of the finger poking. I wasn't questioned at all. I'm in Canada and fly for the military, so I have no reason to fear CAA. I just can't understand why a licencing organization would intimidate people into not reporting concerns for fear of reprimand and into changing their actions due to non-important issues (claiming that reprimand is non-important whereas safe landing is). Seems to me that if this is true with the CAA then they are very ineffective at promoting safe flying.
What would I do? I would continue to the best airfield before fuel became an issue. I don't know what the R44 has for a fuel gauge, but knowing what your fuel should be at points along the way should always be a concern. If headwind increases, watch fuel much more carefully. If at any time I thought I didn't have the fuel to make an airfield and safe landing, then and only then would I go for a field.
Funny thing about this, it happened to me last week. 116nm with 1 hr 40 min to dry tanks, cruise speed of 125 kts and headwind of 30kts for first half and 15kts for last half. I know, it looks close already. Problem is winds at first two airfields were out of limits for shut down. Next problem, the headwind averaged 40kts for first two thirds of trip. Third problem, only other airport along the way was 400' & 1/2 mile vis, with IFR traffic. My only option, declare low fuel and request special VFR (that way I don't have to wait for IFR traffic). Fueled up, flew 15nm home.
The problem I have with this discussion is the fear of the finger poking. I wasn't questioned at all. I'm in Canada and fly for the military, so I have no reason to fear CAA. I just can't understand why a licencing organization would intimidate people into not reporting concerns for fear of reprimand and into changing their actions due to non-important issues (claiming that reprimand is non-important whereas safe landing is). Seems to me that if this is true with the CAA then they are very ineffective at promoting safe flying.
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I agree with the above.
Obviously one plans how much fuel is required but on occasions the met man has been known to be wrong. If you can't arrange your own diversion to a refuel point for some reason, then naturally ask for help without fear of receiving a big stick.
If it is still all going to worms , then thanks to Mr Sikorsky and others, divert to AOS ( any open space) that you can safely land in unlike your fixed plank friends. Al least you will still be alive for someone to complain about.
Obviously one plans how much fuel is required but on occasions the met man has been known to be wrong. If you can't arrange your own diversion to a refuel point for some reason, then naturally ask for help without fear of receiving a big stick.
If it is still all going to worms , then thanks to Mr Sikorsky and others, divert to AOS ( any open space) that you can safely land in unlike your fixed plank friends. Al least you will still be alive for someone to complain about.
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heedm
It's true.
The UK CAA has made it known that any pilot who can be shown to have run short of fuel will be prosecuted for Endangering an Aircraft - one of the most serious offences a pilot can commit under UK law.
It's true.
The UK CAA has made it known that any pilot who can be shown to have run short of fuel will be prosecuted for Endangering an Aircraft - one of the most serious offences a pilot can commit under UK law.
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Heliport
If CAA doesn't check WHY you have run short of fuel and charges you regardless, then that is ridiculous.
I wonder what the difference in charge would be between if you flew on, ran out of fuel and killed several people and landed in an empty paddock and injured no one.
Flying Lawyer??
If CAA doesn't check WHY you have run short of fuel and charges you regardless, then that is ridiculous.
I wonder what the difference in charge would be between if you flew on, ran out of fuel and killed several people and landed in an empty paddock and injured no one.
Flying Lawyer??
I'm afraid I'm going to add a mild note of dissent here; I'm not a RW pilot but I do trundle around in microlights a great deal, which have three things in common that are relevant here, which are:-
- Ability to land almost anywhere
- Great susceptibility to errors in wind forecast
- The rest of aviation regards us with great suspicion
The CAA will NOT prosecute or even finger poke at you for a safety diversion, if you land with a mugfull of fuel left at an aifield in a declared safety diversion instead of in a field with none. Also at the airfield there should be a fuel pump, a kettle, and people who can help you with any other problems such as an up to date met forecast.
I'm speaking from experience here; last year I diverted (in a microlight slightly slower than an R22 would be) into RAF Odiham after I realised that the headwind was somewhat more than forecast and I was likely to arrive at my planned destination with a teaspoon of fuel rather than the planned 40 minutes worth. I was being worked by Farnborough Radar, and asked them to arrange a diversion into Lasham for me - this they declined but offered me Odiham which I accepted. Odiham invited me in, waived landing fees since it was a safety diversion, tried to get me fuel - discovered that they had nothing but Avtur and even the MT pool ran entirely on diesel, and eventually a very helpful air-trafficer gave me a lift to the local garage where I bought jerry cans and fuel, which eventually got me safely home.
None of this would have happened in a field next to the M25, and there were no reprisals - not even a letter from the CAA asking what happened.
Frankly, the only criticism I'd make of the R44 pilot was that he failed to work out for himself where he could divert to, and possibly he left things a little later than he should. But at the end of the day, he asked for help when he needed it, and got an aircraft safely into an airfield who could sort his problems out. Nobody should be finger poking at somebody who did that.
G
- Ability to land almost anywhere
- Great susceptibility to errors in wind forecast
- The rest of aviation regards us with great suspicion
The CAA will NOT prosecute or even finger poke at you for a safety diversion, if you land with a mugfull of fuel left at an aifield in a declared safety diversion instead of in a field with none. Also at the airfield there should be a fuel pump, a kettle, and people who can help you with any other problems such as an up to date met forecast.
I'm speaking from experience here; last year I diverted (in a microlight slightly slower than an R22 would be) into RAF Odiham after I realised that the headwind was somewhat more than forecast and I was likely to arrive at my planned destination with a teaspoon of fuel rather than the planned 40 minutes worth. I was being worked by Farnborough Radar, and asked them to arrange a diversion into Lasham for me - this they declined but offered me Odiham which I accepted. Odiham invited me in, waived landing fees since it was a safety diversion, tried to get me fuel - discovered that they had nothing but Avtur and even the MT pool ran entirely on diesel, and eventually a very helpful air-trafficer gave me a lift to the local garage where I bought jerry cans and fuel, which eventually got me safely home.
None of this would have happened in a field next to the M25, and there were no reprisals - not even a letter from the CAA asking what happened.
Frankly, the only criticism I'd make of the R44 pilot was that he failed to work out for himself where he could divert to, and possibly he left things a little later than he should. But at the end of the day, he asked for help when he needed it, and got an aircraft safely into an airfield who could sort his problems out. Nobody should be finger poking at somebody who did that.
G
In Oz, we have Civil Aviation Advisory Publications which provide guidelines for variable and reserve fuel. 20 min fixed reserve for VFR and 30 minutes for IFR. Advisory only.
However the Civil Aviation Regulations state that the Pilot In Command shall simply ensure there is sufficient Fuel and Oil for the flight.
So if he lands with the engine still running, as far as my understanding goes in Oz he is not liable for any prosecution legally.
Personally, I'd rather be scratching my head in a field somewhere and not the least bit concerned about repercussions rather than have the noise stop even if it was on short final to an airfield.
And it gives you stories to tell the grandkids too....
However the Civil Aviation Regulations state that the Pilot In Command shall simply ensure there is sufficient Fuel and Oil for the flight.
So if he lands with the engine still running, as far as my understanding goes in Oz he is not liable for any prosecution legally.
Personally, I'd rather be scratching my head in a field somewhere and not the least bit concerned about repercussions rather than have the noise stop even if it was on short final to an airfield.
And it gives you stories to tell the grandkids too....
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I'm glad it isn't just me that has wondered about this scenario, and it's good for the less experienced (like me) to get some views on this.
In my one experience of an emergency landing in a field, the farmer was understanding and friendly, which leaves me with little fear of doing it again.
Could this be another sighting of the 'rogue' low-viz R44 pilot in the northwest from the other thread?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=58122
In my one experience of an emergency landing in a field, the farmer was understanding and friendly, which leaves me with little fear of doing it again.
Could this be another sighting of the 'rogue' low-viz R44 pilot in the northwest from the other thread?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=58122
Last edited by Draco; 3rd Jul 2002 at 13:04.
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If it was a cold winter's evening look for a farmhouse with a smoke coming out of the chimney where I could expect tea and crumpets.
The difficult part is deciding when you have really f----d up. Once decided it all becomes quite easy by comparison. I've done it often and become quite good at making the decision now - I think it has something to do with age!
The difficult part is deciding when you have really f----d up. Once decided it all becomes quite easy by comparison. I've done it often and become quite good at making the decision now - I think it has something to do with age!
Gatvol
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Its a Helicopter, land the thing near a road , go and get some gas. Whats the big deal. Its not endangering anything if you land. Its when you think you have to make it to some 10,000 ft runway that shows your judgement is bad....
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"There but for the grace of God go I".........It happened to me in the North of Germany during manoeuvres with the Brit Army. A combination of poor weather and "gethomeitis" and very poor captaincy decision left me with a red, egg-covered face and a Gazelle parked in a field 1500 metres from my HLS. I landed with about 20Kg's of fuel on board. The boss sent a bowser out to me and you can imagine how popular I was with the boss and the lads on the bowser crew. The moral of the story is Planning, Planning and more Planning. Check points on route for groundspeed and fuel consumption are essential. The other thing to remember is "NEVER PASS GAS"(Meant in the nicest possible way). Diversion airfields at several points en-route should be planned and used, if necessary. A little embarassment is much better than being cold, stone dead!
Sorry, the answer to the question should be LAND and sort it out from there!!
Sorry, the answer to the question should be LAND and sort it out from there!!
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The R44 only gives you 5 minutes after the light has come on. The gauges however are pretty good.
I agree with the QHI - stick it in a field, buy a bottle of something for the farmer and come back the next day.
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots - but no old bold pilots !
I agree with the QHI - stick it in a field, buy a bottle of something for the farmer and come back the next day.
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots - but no old bold pilots !
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Once, when I was a brand new flight instructor working at a school in the US, my boss told me to take one of our students up and fly around for a while. So off we went to a nearby city, with my student steering and me navigating using a sectional. We landed at the downtown heliport and, having noticed a railroadtrack along the way that paralleled our course, I put my maps away under the seat for the return flight, confident that I could find the way back. Ofcourse we promptly missed the track and veered off into the wrong direction. By the time I had realised my mistake and turned towards home, we were running low on fuel. With no airport in sight, my choice was to land in a field with twenty minutes reserve or to press on and land at the airport on fumes. With a knot in my stomach I headed for a field next to a gas station where I called my boss on the phone, expecting to be fired on the spot. His response surprised me: he just laughed and told me to stay put. In short order he arrived in a second helicopter. We transferred some fuel and completed our flight without incident. Why was my boss happy? Sure, I had made a mistake, but I did not compound one mistake with another. Had he found me at the airport with a near-empty fuel tank he most surely would have fired me.
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All quite interesting and some nice points made.
There is a big disconnect between the certification rules and the operational rules. Certification does not require any range information to be in the 'approved' section of the flight manual, (in fact the latest FAA Rotorcraft Handbook doesn't even mention range and endurance in the performance section). But the operations side will, at a minimum, look badly at anyone who runs out of fuel.
Not only that, but as we know, it is always a headwind, and probably stronger than forecast.
The solution I would propose is to fit your aircraft with a fuel flow system, hook it up to your GPS and learn how to use it.
There is a big disconnect between the certification rules and the operational rules. Certification does not require any range information to be in the 'approved' section of the flight manual, (in fact the latest FAA Rotorcraft Handbook doesn't even mention range and endurance in the performance section). But the operations side will, at a minimum, look badly at anyone who runs out of fuel.
Not only that, but as we know, it is always a headwind, and probably stronger than forecast.
The solution I would propose is to fit your aircraft with a fuel flow system, hook it up to your GPS and learn how to use it.
Avoid imitations
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Now there's a test pilot speaking! Not sure a fuel flowmeter hooked into GPS is necessary, Shawn. Perhaps next time the pilot will simply just refer to that old maxim:
"Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$-Poor Pilot Performance!".
If the aircraft was badly affected by the strong westerly he was presumably flying into it on a westerly track. This means at Stoke-on-Trent he would have flown by at least 4 airfields in his not-too-distant past e.g. Nottingham Tollerton, East Midlands, Derby and Tatenhill. These airfields are 42nm, 33nm, 23nm and 20nm to the east of Stoke. All of them have AVGAS.
On the other hand, if he was on a northerly track and unaffected by the strong westerly, he would have passed Wolverhampton (32nm), Cosford (25nm), Shawbury (21nm) and Ternhill (14nm).
Shame he didn't check his progress and fuel gauge a little more often, perhaps he will next time though. :o
Placed in the situation he had got himself into, I would have carried out a controlled and powered landing at a time of my choice in a nice field of my choice rather than risk a sudden engine-off in one that wasn't so nice...
Just in case anyone thinks I'm being "holier than thou". Been there, seen it, done it. By night, too!
"Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$-Poor Pilot Performance!".
If the aircraft was badly affected by the strong westerly he was presumably flying into it on a westerly track. This means at Stoke-on-Trent he would have flown by at least 4 airfields in his not-too-distant past e.g. Nottingham Tollerton, East Midlands, Derby and Tatenhill. These airfields are 42nm, 33nm, 23nm and 20nm to the east of Stoke. All of them have AVGAS.
On the other hand, if he was on a northerly track and unaffected by the strong westerly, he would have passed Wolverhampton (32nm), Cosford (25nm), Shawbury (21nm) and Ternhill (14nm).
Shame he didn't check his progress and fuel gauge a little more often, perhaps he will next time though. :o
Placed in the situation he had got himself into, I would have carried out a controlled and powered landing at a time of my choice in a nice field of my choice rather than risk a sudden engine-off in one that wasn't so nice...
Just in case anyone thinks I'm being "holier than thou". Been there, seen it, done it. By night, too!
Last edited by ShyTorque; 2nd Jan 2003 at 23:55.
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well when i did my 44 rating , it was with a guy who just came back from a round the world trip with a certain lady ....... no names !
and when i asked him how long you have when the light comes on ,
he said
"well its ten minutes , but i know a fellow who went fifteen , " after a brief pause he said " and i wouldn't do it again "
and when i asked him how long you have when the light comes on ,
he said
"well its ten minutes , but i know a fellow who went fifteen , " after a brief pause he said " and i wouldn't do it again "
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Seems most of the responders would have put it in a field and sorted out the fuel on the ground and I'd have to agree.
I don't know how far apart service stations are there in that part of Britain but looking for one of them would have been my plan. Land next to one walk over and buy some mo-gas (I assume you still can get super (leaded) fuel from bowsers or has that been withdrawn in the UK)
The R44 and R22 run well on mo-gas especially if you get in before you run low on the real juice and go for a mix of mo-gas and avgas. If you have just mo-gas it can run a little hot.
If you can't find a servo then farmers are usually pretty friendly and helpful. Well they are in this part of the world, anyway.
I don't know how far apart service stations are there in that part of Britain but looking for one of them would have been my plan. Land next to one walk over and buy some mo-gas (I assume you still can get super (leaded) fuel from bowsers or has that been withdrawn in the UK)
The R44 and R22 run well on mo-gas especially if you get in before you run low on the real juice and go for a mix of mo-gas and avgas. If you have just mo-gas it can run a little hot.
If you can't find a servo then farmers are usually pretty friendly and helpful. Well they are in this part of the world, anyway.
I got caught back in the 70s doing flood relief in a Huey around Charleville, QLD. The land is dead flat, so when a flood comes, the water spreads in sheets that can be 10-20 miles wide, meaning the pilot cannot see dry land anywhere from low level. Cloud prevents you from climbing. Maps mean nothing, because the only navigation features like roads, railways and rivers, are all under the water. And a Huey (ours, anyway) only has a single ADF for navigation.
We were tasked to go to station A to drop food, station B to collect a person to go to hospital, C for a mail drop, ooops, there is a new call to go to D to collect a pregnant lady who is about to pop, who knows that place? You do? OK, point the way. Time passes, no, that's not it... maybe that's it over there... no, over there...Land in the shallow water next to this house and ask them - damn, it is 5 miles back that way! Eventually we find the right farm, collect the lady and turn for Charleville on the NDB. No real idea where we are, just a general feeling that it is over there and not far away.
The fuel gauge is dropping, but there is no dry land to put it down on, no road that a fuel truck could use to get to us, the pregnant lady looks like she is bulging enough to burst, so on we go, following that single needle. The 20 minute fuel light had been on for about 10 minutes when we touched down on the airfield, the only piece of dry land around the town.
As this thread is called, what would YOU have done?
We were tasked to go to station A to drop food, station B to collect a person to go to hospital, C for a mail drop, ooops, there is a new call to go to D to collect a pregnant lady who is about to pop, who knows that place? You do? OK, point the way. Time passes, no, that's not it... maybe that's it over there... no, over there...Land in the shallow water next to this house and ask them - damn, it is 5 miles back that way! Eventually we find the right farm, collect the lady and turn for Charleville on the NDB. No real idea where we are, just a general feeling that it is over there and not far away.
The fuel gauge is dropping, but there is no dry land to put it down on, no road that a fuel truck could use to get to us, the pregnant lady looks like she is bulging enough to burst, so on we go, following that single needle. The 20 minute fuel light had been on for about 10 minutes when we touched down on the airfield, the only piece of dry land around the town.
As this thread is called, what would YOU have done?
I think it was TABDY who suggested that the pilot should have known when 'enough was enough', ie " Chicken Fuels".
It's fine from a warm seat stating the obvious but CFs to nearest suitable airfields would have probably saved time in the long run.
I gather there was not the added 'commercial pressure' aspect to account for aswell. Telling someone else via RT may have been a way of sharing the problem but would not have always led to as satisfactory solution. Atleast with a Robbo you can still use most Garages.
Classic scenario...trying to fly around increasing storms along the south coast (Glorious Goodwood - Gatwick to Goodwood -punters going to the evening ball). Fuel light comes on, viz down to burrer all in showers. Knew I had Shoram to dive into for fuel so allowed myself another attempt at getting through the ridge line. Added complication of HT wires. Now couldn't even get to Shoram, positive decision to put down in a field...blow me but there was the 'pub' right ahead.
Passengers took on the British Bulldog spirit (one was bare foot - she was meeting her dress shoes at Goodwood!) A local resident drove the punters to Goodwood, whilst his wife made me a cup of tea and gave me use of the telephone to organise recovery (ac parked sufficiently close enough to the gate for towed bowser to reach (have to admit that this was a fluke, rain had made the field a quagmire).
The punters were happy - got to the ball on time with a tale to tell.
The locals were happy (given a pleasure flight at a later date).
The Jetbox was happy and returned to work the next day.
I was happy, taxi to my hotel, John Smiths, and a night club full of strange folk.
The company were happy, reputation still intact and invoice paid as the punters were actually picked up in the first place and conveyed to their destination!
Put it in a field every time, you'll be surprised that it doesn't happen to the locals/pax all that often!
It's fine from a warm seat stating the obvious but CFs to nearest suitable airfields would have probably saved time in the long run.
I gather there was not the added 'commercial pressure' aspect to account for aswell. Telling someone else via RT may have been a way of sharing the problem but would not have always led to as satisfactory solution. Atleast with a Robbo you can still use most Garages.
Classic scenario...trying to fly around increasing storms along the south coast (Glorious Goodwood - Gatwick to Goodwood -punters going to the evening ball). Fuel light comes on, viz down to burrer all in showers. Knew I had Shoram to dive into for fuel so allowed myself another attempt at getting through the ridge line. Added complication of HT wires. Now couldn't even get to Shoram, positive decision to put down in a field...blow me but there was the 'pub' right ahead.
Passengers took on the British Bulldog spirit (one was bare foot - she was meeting her dress shoes at Goodwood!) A local resident drove the punters to Goodwood, whilst his wife made me a cup of tea and gave me use of the telephone to organise recovery (ac parked sufficiently close enough to the gate for towed bowser to reach (have to admit that this was a fluke, rain had made the field a quagmire).
The punters were happy - got to the ball on time with a tale to tell.
The locals were happy (given a pleasure flight at a later date).
The Jetbox was happy and returned to work the next day.
I was happy, taxi to my hotel, John Smiths, and a night club full of strange folk.
The company were happy, reputation still intact and invoice paid as the punters were actually picked up in the first place and conveyed to their destination!
Put it in a field every time, you'll be surprised that it doesn't happen to the locals/pax all that often!