Torque rise phenomenon
AnFI - I fly an Airbus helicopter and the yaw system has a position transducer and a yaw force link - both of which are there to coordinate the AP computer's output and are exactly NOTHING to do with Nr.
Do please explain why you would command an Nr change with a yaw sensor instead of a collective one.
I think LAla's point was that you were explaining basic governing as if you were addressing a 5 year old and not a helicopter pilot - then you make a statement about not moving the lever and the power decreasing without any qualifying comments about having increased speed.
Do please explain why you would command an Nr change with a yaw sensor instead of a collective one.
I think LAla's point was that you were explaining basic governing as if you were addressing a 5 year old and not a helicopter pilot - then you make a statement about not moving the lever and the power decreasing without any qualifying comments about having increased speed.
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The EC130 has a yaw anticipator which is designed in conjunction with ASI input to droop the Nr by 8 rpm on acquisition of effective translational lift on departure.
What that has to do with this thread or the price of fish is not clear to me, but maybe it'll help get the thread back on track.
What that has to do with this thread or the price of fish is not clear to me, but maybe it'll help get the thread back on track.
Punto - it isn't relevant since presumably it would give a Tq decrease rather than the spike that the OP specified.
Out of interest, do you know if this arrangement between the Yaw channel and the FADEC is to reduce noise and vibration in the cruise or to provide more TR thrust in the hover?
Is this the only airbus helo with this facility?
Out of interest, do you know if this arrangement between the Yaw channel and the FADEC is to reduce noise and vibration in the cruise or to provide more TR thrust in the hover?
Is this the only airbus helo with this facility?
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Punto
my statments were clear and factual and relevant to the thread, the price of fish is factors that change the power required without moving the lever. I don't think crabs display of sarcasm and ignorance is much help and risks a divergence
Crab: "Do please explain why you would command an Nr change with a yaw sensor instead of a collective one."
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious (and anyway it's not a yaw sensor, it's a pedal position transducer, do keep up) and I wouldn't want to condescend to you anymore than necessary, but I am happy to explain it to you like the 5 yr old you mention if neccessary?
and
"....without any qualifying comments about having increased speed." the whole thread is about the power change required as the speed increases, if you weren't so focussed on trying to get at me all the time you might notice that. I refer you to my earlier statement "Torque should decrease with fixed lever as speed increases to 120kph"
and Crab you will note that the esteemed 212 has just learned that Pedal Transducers ARE used to alter the Nr, that's the great power of pprune.
Anyone can learn something here, even you !
my statments were clear and factual and relevant to the thread, the price of fish is factors that change the power required without moving the lever. I don't think crabs display of sarcasm and ignorance is much help and risks a divergence
Crab: "Do please explain why you would command an Nr change with a yaw sensor instead of a collective one."
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious (and anyway it's not a yaw sensor, it's a pedal position transducer, do keep up) and I wouldn't want to condescend to you anymore than necessary, but I am happy to explain it to you like the 5 yr old you mention if neccessary?
and
"....without any qualifying comments about having increased speed." the whole thread is about the power change required as the speed increases, if you weren't so focussed on trying to get at me all the time you might notice that. I refer you to my earlier statement "Torque should decrease with fixed lever as speed increases to 120kph"
and Crab you will note that the esteemed 212 has just learned that Pedal Transducers ARE used to alter the Nr, that's the great power of pprune.
Anyone can learn something here, even you !
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Lala, there is something wrong with this helicopter. If the transducer were the wrong way around there would be an Nr increase. I don't know what is wrong with this helicopter, but those are factors that would change the power required without moving the lever (... as speed is increased), just most of the factors should produce the opposite effect, which makes the op's claim more disturbing. An uncommanded pitch increase is therefore the most likely culprit.
So we have to refer to your earlier posts constantly to clarify the statements you make in the later ones???
come on then, let's have the reason....
TR or MR pitch???
SLB - it would appear that the EC130 meets all the criteria
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious
An uncommanded pitch increase is therefore the most likely culprit.
SLB - it would appear that the EC130 meets all the criteria
HAL Dhruv which was a technology share from the EC665 Tiger in the MR area.
Most if not all FADEC equipped helicopters have position sensors in the YAW and COLL channels.
The data from the sensors is input into the "mapped" model in the EEC to adjust fuel flow accordingly very accurately without the need for a "governor reset" correction although that function still exists.
A well sorted unit is impeccable with the downside being that it can lull you into a false sense that as the Nr is so stable the rotor must have a lot of mass and therefore inertia.
The reality may not be as you suspect.
Most if not all FADEC equipped helicopters have position sensors in the YAW and COLL channels.
The data from the sensors is input into the "mapped" model in the EEC to adjust fuel flow accordingly very accurately without the need for a "governor reset" correction although that function still exists.
A well sorted unit is impeccable with the downside being that it can lull you into a false sense that as the Nr is so stable the rotor must have a lot of mass and therefore inertia.
The reality may not be as you suspect.
RVDT - I guess these sensors act as anticipators so that any yaw or collective input is used to predict an increase or decrease in rotor drag (either main or tail) and adjust the fuel before the change happens. Reduces or eliminates transient droop then?
if so, this is different to Puntosaurus EC130 step change in Nr and not what Anfi described as yaw transducers altering Nr, yes?
if so, this is different to Puntosaurus EC130 step change in Nr and not what Anfi described as yaw transducers altering Nr, yes?
Condescending and supercilious - nice mix AnFI
You say transducer, I say a sensor....let's call the whole thing off....(there's a song in there somewhere)
You say transducer, I say a sensor....let's call the whole thing off....(there's a song in there somewhere)
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You've missed the point again it's not whether its a sensor or transducer it's whether it's a YAW sensor or a PEDAL POSITION transducer (or sensor if you prefer). The difference is obvious (5yr olds: one is the rotation about the normal axis and the other is the control for the pitch of the TR). I said what I meant, and I was right and you were wrong as usual, stop harassing me from your position of relative inexperience and ignorance, it is getting tedious.
No Lala
The H130 has Pedal Position sensors (or transducers) and alters it's Nr because of the inputs recieved therefrom. The offical reason is some nonsense about being quieter (and it is very quiet), but the real reason is likely to be to produce more TR thrust in the hover.
No Lala
The H130 has Pedal Position sensors (or transducers) and alters it's Nr because of the inputs recieved therefrom. The offical reason is some nonsense about being quieter (and it is very quiet), but the real reason is likely to be to produce more TR thrust in the hover.
No Lala
The H130 has Pedal Position sensors (or transducers) and alters it's Nr because of the inputs recieved therefrom. The offical reason is some nonsense about being quieter (and it is very quiet), but the real reason is likely to be to produce more TR thrust in the hover.
The H130 has Pedal Position sensors (or transducers) and alters it's Nr because of the inputs recieved therefrom. The offical reason is some nonsense about being quieter (and it is very quiet), but the real reason is likely to be to produce more TR thrust in the hover.
A yaw pedal position transducer can be called a position sensor since it provides the AP (or FADEC) with the actual pedal position which will be representative of TR pitch.
A yaw sensor would not be in the yaw control run but would be an output from the yaw rate gyro/horizontal gyro and be used for rate damping or yaw synchronisation functions.
You must have to wear sunglasses to prevent your (self-assessed) glittering intellect from blinding you
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crab you seem to be slowly understanding what i said but you are so damn rude i just dont understand where that comes from
when I told you there were Airbus products with PPI that command Nr change you (and several others) didn't believe it, now you find that that is true you accuse me of poor knowledge and are sarcastic again about sunglasses etc I answered Lala's question, yes he was right about that part.
You don't understand the difference between a yaw sensor and a control position transducer, I explain it to like a 5yr old and then you tell me it as if I didn't know in the first place. Your constant personal attack, almost always where you turn out to be wrong diverts threads from the topic and makes discussion really unpleasant. Are you a rantallion? Can't we just stay on topic?
WhoKnows: "@SLB: I think this is about the indian BK117 look-alike, the infamous HAL Dhruv..." probably right, black fox gives India as location
worth noting 4 out of 7 Ecuadorian Dhruvs crashed, what a total waste of time carrying 2 engines, simple reliable performance is the best safety asset, certainly at least in this type of arena. (composite saving 50% of weight etc etc)
SLB: unlikely to be Guimbal, black fox says torque rise on both engines
when I told you there were Airbus products with PPI that command Nr change you (and several others) didn't believe it, now you find that that is true you accuse me of poor knowledge and are sarcastic again about sunglasses etc I answered Lala's question, yes he was right about that part.
You don't understand the difference between a yaw sensor and a control position transducer, I explain it to like a 5yr old and then you tell me it as if I didn't know in the first place. Your constant personal attack, almost always where you turn out to be wrong diverts threads from the topic and makes discussion really unpleasant. Are you a rantallion? Can't we just stay on topic?
WhoKnows: "@SLB: I think this is about the indian BK117 look-alike, the infamous HAL Dhruv..." probably right, black fox gives India as location
worth noting 4 out of 7 Ecuadorian Dhruvs crashed, what a total waste of time carrying 2 engines, simple reliable performance is the best safety asset, certainly at least in this type of arena. (composite saving 50% of weight etc etc)
SLB: unlikely to be Guimbal, black fox says torque rise on both engines
Err no - you were quite insistent that it is a transducer and not a sensor - that is not the case as I patiently explained - a yaw transducer and a yaw position sensor do the same thing - they give a signal proportional to the yaw pedal position. And they don't directly command the Nr change - that is what the FADEC does since it, and not the transducer/sensor/transmitter
and here we are back on your favourite argument which you get all threads around to eventually - talk about not staying on topic
PS - you really need to get a sense of humour
what a total waste of time carrying 2 engines,
PS - you really need to get a sense of humour
I indeed overlooked the 2 engines phrase.
So probably a Dhruv although there is 1 EC130 on the Indian register: VT-GVO.
Now we have sorted that out, are any of the previous posters who wanted to know the type, familiar with a Dhruv?
SLB
So probably a Dhruv although there is 1 EC130 on the Indian register: VT-GVO.
Now we have sorted that out, are any of the previous posters who wanted to know the type, familiar with a Dhruv?
SLB
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crab you are very confused. Your transducer and sensor point is irrelevant (the sensor IS a transducer duh) YOU said YAW sensor but it does NOT sense YAW it senses PEDAL POSITION duh, wake up
Me "The H130 has Pedal Position sensors (or transducers) and alters it's Nr because of the inputs recieved therefrom." it: the 130 because of the inputs recieved from the transducer. Of course the Pedal Transducer doesn't directly alter the Nr, there are components in between.
You are a waste of time, what do you think about the Dhruv?
The twin concept depends on logic of your level for it to exist.
Me "The H130 has Pedal Position sensors (or transducers) and alters it's Nr because of the inputs recieved therefrom." it: the 130 because of the inputs recieved from the transducer. Of course the Pedal Transducer doesn't directly alter the Nr, there are components in between.
You are a waste of time, what do you think about the Dhruv?
The twin concept depends on logic of your level for it to exist.
For you to opine that crab@ speaks from inexperience and ignorance, even with the defining 'relative', is exceptionally offensive. Knowing the backgrounds of you both there is no doubt in my mind who has a more logical, sound and knowledgeable approach to helicopter operations. And it isn't you.
Knowing the backgrounds of you both there is no doubt in my mind who has a more logical, sound and knowledgeable approach to helicopter operations. And it isn't you.