R44 Cadet
R44Cadet
I actually think this is a really astute move.
People have long called the R44 'a really good two-seater', two normal size people, full fuel and bags and off you go at 105kts.
It appears that they are about to make the R44 a really good two-seater! Although this will be a good training helicopter, if they can hold the price at R22 levels (including the overhaul), then they have a brilliant entry-level personal helicopter.
Kurt, if you are listening...drive the price down and this will sell like hot cakes without real competition.
Nice job,
CRAN
People have long called the R44 'a really good two-seater', two normal size people, full fuel and bags and off you go at 105kts.
It appears that they are about to make the R44 a really good two-seater! Although this will be a good training helicopter, if they can hold the price at R22 levels (including the overhaul), then they have a brilliant entry-level personal helicopter.
Kurt, if you are listening...drive the price down and this will sell like hot cakes without real competition.
Nice job,
CRAN
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this is pretty exciting news - some serious competition for the G2 I'd say. I doubt Robinson have been selling many helicopters for the training market of late and this is not a bad way of getting back in the game.
I agree CRAN; R22 price point and I'll have one.
I agree CRAN; R22 price point and I'll have one.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Norway
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From a manufacturing Point of view, how is this two-seater cheaper than the normal R44? Same Engine etc. An extra two seats and seat belts can't make much difference. Why not just reduce the price of the Raven 1?
Also, any information on what the reduced power does for maintenance?
Also, any information on what the reduced power does for maintenance?
Positioning
I think it is because they believe or are targeting a different kind on person to buy a Cadet over a Raven 1.
Therefore, in order to justify the existing price of the R44 Raven they need a tangible reduction in 'value' to justify the lower price of the new machine. i.e. less seats, less power, less MTOW...less of a machine. That way those that have been happily paying the premium to buy an entry-level 4-seat personal helicopter or light commercial helicopter can keep paying it, whereas flight schools and typical 'R22' private owners can have a cadet at a justifiably lower price (and lower margin for Robinson)...but production volumes and efficiencies go up.
Of course one problem that the R44 will faces as a training helicopter outside of the US is the addition fuel price. £60/hr (90USD) in an R22, but £100/hr (150USD) for a typical R44. Though this is not really a significant issue for private owners.
I agree with GS, if they hit the R22 price and can offer R22 level pricing for the overhaul (and 12-year inspection for those that don't fly off the hours), I would buy one tomorrow.
CRAN
Therefore, in order to justify the existing price of the R44 Raven they need a tangible reduction in 'value' to justify the lower price of the new machine. i.e. less seats, less power, less MTOW...less of a machine. That way those that have been happily paying the premium to buy an entry-level 4-seat personal helicopter or light commercial helicopter can keep paying it, whereas flight schools and typical 'R22' private owners can have a cadet at a justifiably lower price (and lower margin for Robinson)...but production volumes and efficiencies go up.
Of course one problem that the R44 will faces as a training helicopter outside of the US is the addition fuel price. £60/hr (90USD) in an R22, but £100/hr (150USD) for a typical R44. Though this is not really a significant issue for private owners.
I agree with GS, if they hit the R22 price and can offer R22 level pricing for the overhaul (and 12-year inspection for those that don't fly off the hours), I would buy one tomorrow.
CRAN
Thread Starter
.
Hello CRAN,
Don't you think you bury the R22 a little bit quickly ?
The Cadet can well stand , in term of specs and price, between the R22 and the R44 I
.
Hello CRAN,
Don't you think you bury the R22 a little bit quickly ?
The Cadet can well stand , in term of specs and price, between the R22 and the R44 I
.
R22
Henri,
Fair point.
My first experience of flight in a helicopter as a boy was in the R22, my first 30min trial lesson at Tiger helicopters was in an R22 and I learned to fly in an R22. I have a soft spot for the R22...
However, it's MGW is simply too low. The fact is whenever or whatever (other than cattle mustering solo) you do in a R22 you will be at MGW. At MGW it has a modest power to weight ratio and is too slow in all conditions. You can't put two normal people in an r22, fill the tanks and go somewhere with a suitcase. Therefore as a personal helicopter it fails the basic functionality test. To make matters worse, these days it is ridiculously expensive to purchase and overhaul.
My view is that a 2-seat personal helicopter/ ab-initial trainer needs to be 750kg, with 300kg useful load and sold for no more than £135K ($200k).
Power that with the Lycoming IO-390 (210hp), derated to 172hp with some sensible aerodynamics and you'll have a machine that will lift vertically at 500ft/min at MGW up to around 5000ft, cruise at 100kts+ and carry two 90kg people 3hrs of fuel and a 20kg suitcase. That's an entry-level personal helicopter.
Make it pretty and you would sell 200-400 machines a year.
This would be a better alternative to the R44 cadet, but its a lot more hassle than a 'reduced margin' R44.
Perhaps I'll just build one for myself and stick some Garmin glass in it while I'm at it!
All the best,
CRAN
Fair point.
My first experience of flight in a helicopter as a boy was in the R22, my first 30min trial lesson at Tiger helicopters was in an R22 and I learned to fly in an R22. I have a soft spot for the R22...
However, it's MGW is simply too low. The fact is whenever or whatever (other than cattle mustering solo) you do in a R22 you will be at MGW. At MGW it has a modest power to weight ratio and is too slow in all conditions. You can't put two normal people in an r22, fill the tanks and go somewhere with a suitcase. Therefore as a personal helicopter it fails the basic functionality test. To make matters worse, these days it is ridiculously expensive to purchase and overhaul.
My view is that a 2-seat personal helicopter/ ab-initial trainer needs to be 750kg, with 300kg useful load and sold for no more than £135K ($200k).
Power that with the Lycoming IO-390 (210hp), derated to 172hp with some sensible aerodynamics and you'll have a machine that will lift vertically at 500ft/min at MGW up to around 5000ft, cruise at 100kts+ and carry two 90kg people 3hrs of fuel and a 20kg suitcase. That's an entry-level personal helicopter.
Make it pretty and you would sell 200-400 machines a year.
This would be a better alternative to the R44 cadet, but its a lot more hassle than a 'reduced margin' R44.
Perhaps I'll just build one for myself and stick some Garmin glass in it while I'm at it!
All the best,
CRAN
Thread Starter
.
You're right CRAN (I know that you master the subject
)
I'm saying that the R22 has a small market and is not dead yet !
When you're talking about cattle mustering, do you know that in the last years, half of all the new R22 sold went to Australia for that type of operations ?
Best Regards
.
You're right CRAN (I know that you master the subject
)I'm saying that the R22 has a small market and is not dead yet !
When you're talking about cattle mustering, do you know that in the last years, half of all the new R22 sold went to Australia for that type of operations ?
Best Regards
.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't this the R42? The 4 series but with 2 seats.
Might be cheaper to buy a used Raven 1 and take the back seats out. I don't really see that as an advance
Might be cheaper to buy a used Raven 1 and take the back seats out. I don't really see that as an advance
Robinson will never do the same mistake and will create a new name ( like R33, OR R42)
If they had called the R66 not R66 but R44 turbine or R44+.....,
Robinson hasn't had so much trouble to entry the EASA market! Creating a new maschine makes much more trouble than upgrade a old one
If they had called the R66 not R66 but R44 turbine or R44+.....,
Robinson hasn't had so much trouble to entry the EASA market! Creating a new maschine makes much more trouble than upgrade a old one
Robinson will never do the same mistake and will create a new name ( like R33, OR R42)
If they had called the R66 not R66 but R44 turbine or R44+.....,
Robinson hasn't had so much trouble to entry the EASA market! Creating a new maschine makes much more trouble than upgrade a old one
If they had called the R66 not R66 but R44 turbine or R44+.....,
Robinson hasn't had so much trouble to entry the EASA market! Creating a new maschine makes much more trouble than upgrade a old one
Will it still have one of those dynamo's that spring load onto the rotating rotor head shaft, thus producing electricity for its anti cols? (Like those push bike affairs we all had if we were posh with a Raleigh?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 67
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R44 Cadet
I actually think this is a really astute move.
People have long called the R44 'a really good two-seater', two normal size people, full fuel and bags and off you go at 105kts.
It appears that they are about to make the R44 a really good two-seater! Although this will be a good training helicopter, if they can hold the price at R22 levels (including the overhaul), then they have a brilliant entry-level personal helicopter.
Kurt, if you are listening...drive the price down and this will sell like hot cakes without real competition.
People have long called the R44 'a really good two-seater', two normal size people, full fuel and bags and off you go at 105kts.
It appears that they are about to make the R44 a really good two-seater! Although this will be a good training helicopter, if they can hold the price at R22 levels (including the overhaul), then they have a brilliant entry-level personal helicopter.
Kurt, if you are listening...drive the price down and this will sell like hot cakes without real competition.
From a manufacturing Point of view, how is this two-seater cheaper than the normal R44? Same Engine etc. An extra two seats and seat belts can't make much difference. Why not just reduce the price of the Raven 1?
Also, any information on what the reduced power does for maintenance?
Also, any information on what the reduced power does for maintenance?
That said, I'm not sure how Robinson can offer this at anywhere near the R22 price point, and even if they could, as someone else mentioned, the operating cost of the R44 is certainly higher than the R22 so there's still an expense in operating an R44 vs an R22.
My question is why would an operator buy the Cadet unless the price point is substantially lower than a Raven 1? They give up all the operational flexibility of having the back seats, and I'm not sure the derated engine getting you better high/hot performance in a trainer is really all that useful (I've flown a Raven 1 through the high country around Tahoe and Salt Lake City and frankly even with a bunch of photo/video gear on board and full fuel we had plenty of performance).
I suppose it's probably a pretty low cost option for Robinson to offer, and I'm sure they must have had interest from their customers, but frankly I don't see how it makes economic sense to purchase a Cadet versus a Raven 1...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but frankly I don't see how it makes economic sense to purchase a Cadet versus a Raven 1...
Last edited by GS-Alpha; 1st Dec 2015 at 10:19.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In the Alps
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Base price of an R22 is 285.000 USD vs 375.000 for a Raven I. So the gap between the two is not that big. But I am not sure removing two seats will reduce much of the price. On the other hand, the stricter limitations might lead to lower operation costs. Another benefit here in europe would be the lower cost of only having to aquire and maintain one type rating for the R44.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: mostly in the jungle...
Age: 59
Posts: 502
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.....just goes to show what a Raven I COULD be sold for!
As it is - probably "just" a Raven underneath!
And as usual, I assume, the engine down-rating is done only on paper (and the MP-dial). Well, if they actually have a REAL muffler now, that one would take a little bit away, but at the end - it's probably the usual R-fair: "Power is limited to..., but if you need it, don't hesitate to use it all!"
With the 200lb reduction and the lower engine rating, I see a TBO extension in the future of this one....some 200 hrs more?!!
So, now you have
- the R22 for two lite-weights for training
- the R44-two seater for the heavy-weights for training (and getting the student hooked on the 44 - "go and buy a I or II !!"
- the R44 for the students that got hooked on it with the two-seater
- the R66 for the economically not challenged....
Cheers,
thjakits
As it is - probably "just" a Raven underneath!
And as usual, I assume, the engine down-rating is done only on paper (and the MP-dial). Well, if they actually have a REAL muffler now, that one would take a little bit away, but at the end - it's probably the usual R-fair: "Power is limited to..., but if you need it, don't hesitate to use it all!"
With the 200lb reduction and the lower engine rating, I see a TBO extension in the future of this one....some 200 hrs more?!!
So, now you have
- the R22 for two lite-weights for training
- the R44-two seater for the heavy-weights for training (and getting the student hooked on the 44 - "go and buy a I or II !!"
- the R44 for the students that got hooked on it with the two-seater
- the R66 for the economically not challenged....
Cheers,
thjakits
R44 Cadet
Looking forward to seeing it in a week at Heli Expo,
Robinson now accepting orders for new R44 Cadet helicopter | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
(photo courtesy of VerticalMag - Skip Robinson)
When it heads over to this side of the pond thus certified by EASA, it be interesting to see the costs in the UK
At the moment -it is
- $351,400 USD with optional Garmin GTN625 GPS
-Direct Operating Cost Per Hour is $102.80 USD
-Total Operating Cost Per Hour is $203.34 USD
cheers
Robinson now accepting orders for new R44 Cadet helicopter | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
(photo courtesy of VerticalMag - Skip Robinson)
When it heads over to this side of the pond thus certified by EASA, it be interesting to see the costs in the UK
At the moment -it is
- $351,400 USD with optional Garmin GTN625 GPS
-Direct Operating Cost Per Hour is $102.80 USD
-Total Operating Cost Per Hour is $203.34 USD
cheers
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting to look at RHC website regarding purchase price and running costs of the Cadet in relation to the R22 and the Raven 1.
Not unexpectedly the list price is roughly midway between R22 and Raven 1 but take a look at the running costs. "14gph @ $5.50per gallon". That works out at less that £1/litre and it is a long time since I paid that in the UK. Using the factory figures and an average UK Avgas price expect somewhere in the region of £90/hr in fuel.
Overhaul costs for the Cadet are similar to Raven 1 but spread over 2400 hours rather than 2200 so a saving there providing that you fly at least 200hrs per year.
No doubt that the Cadet will find its own market slot.
Not unexpectedly the list price is roughly midway between R22 and Raven 1 but take a look at the running costs. "14gph @ $5.50per gallon". That works out at less that £1/litre and it is a long time since I paid that in the UK. Using the factory figures and an average UK Avgas price expect somewhere in the region of £90/hr in fuel.
Overhaul costs for the Cadet are similar to Raven 1 but spread over 2400 hours rather than 2200 so a saving there providing that you fly at least 200hrs per year.
No doubt that the Cadet will find its own market slot.
