Why is this landing good/bad?
Thread Starter
Why is this landing good/bad?
To my untrained eye it looks like a nifty piece of precision flying, but it has been slammed by others as unnecessarily reckless.
Can someone explain to me if this is a routine maneuver to fly and why it is dangerous, other than the obvious placement of people on the intended landing site?
Let's talk about the approach: actual landing isn't an issue.
There isn't a windsock, but give the benefit of the doubt and accept the approach is into wind.
The landing-on direction is dictated by the loading zone.
Ideally, I would have looked more at a curved approach with the final turn into the landing configuration as a much more measured and controlled manoeuvre.
As shown here, even allowing for the camera angle, there seems to be a period where the 212 has gone beyond a sideways and into a backward component flightpath. That, and the lateral rolling and nose down pitch to induce a reduction in groundspeed indicates an approach which could have turned pear shaped, but was well controlled. Apart from that, normal stuff!
I'd hazard a guess that it is one of Alpine Helicopters 212s, and once this thread comes to light then the YouTube may get pulled even though it has been there for 7 years! Hotdogging these days is almost guaranteed to get caught on camera; what we used to do/get away with is fortunately lost in the mists of memory cells, so let he who is without sin cast the first stone
There isn't a windsock, but give the benefit of the doubt and accept the approach is into wind.
The landing-on direction is dictated by the loading zone.
Ideally, I would have looked more at a curved approach with the final turn into the landing configuration as a much more measured and controlled manoeuvre.
As shown here, even allowing for the camera angle, there seems to be a period where the 212 has gone beyond a sideways and into a backward component flightpath. That, and the lateral rolling and nose down pitch to induce a reduction in groundspeed indicates an approach which could have turned pear shaped, but was well controlled. Apart from that, normal stuff!
I'd hazard a guess that it is one of Alpine Helicopters 212s, and once this thread comes to light then the YouTube may get pulled even though it has been there for 7 years! Hotdogging these days is almost guaranteed to get caught on camera; what we used to do/get away with is fortunately lost in the mists of memory cells, so let he who is without sin cast the first stone
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John,
I suspect it an Alpine machine as well. And yes, I know Alpine owns Canadian Mountain Holidays.
But unfortunately, when you are doing 120 takeoffs and landings a day (typical for heli-skiing) and the customer is grinding your ass for every 1/10 of a minute (typical Canadian heli-ski customer) this type of flying becomes pretty common.
Anyway, clearly the a/c was light so he could have lost an engine at any point and continued. Looking at the clouds I suspect the wind was calm or nearly so.
So, ... rock on dude
I suspect it an Alpine machine as well. And yes, I know Alpine owns Canadian Mountain Holidays.
But unfortunately, when you are doing 120 takeoffs and landings a day (typical for heli-skiing) and the customer is grinding your ass for every 1/10 of a minute (typical Canadian heli-ski customer) this type of flying becomes pretty common.
Anyway, clearly the a/c was light so he could have lost an engine at any point and continued. Looking at the clouds I suspect the wind was calm or nearly so.
So, ... rock on dude
... the time pressure is so intense that he couldn't have just widened out a nice elegant sweep to a straight-in approach? Would only be a few seconds more and a bit more gentle to people and equipment?
Could be a bit of "airshow" syndrome with a crowd of awed customers looking on. Although a mining or oil/gas customer would frown on this (& probably a few owners!), it appears to me that the pilot had everything under control. Certainly looks slick, & the skiers are paying for an adventure!
Just a fixed wing pilot here, no knowledge of helicopter ops but is it possible the pilots were attempting to avoid flying through the area behind the helipad
for some unknown reason ?
Its hard to tell as the picture is so dark.
The approach looked pretty skillful to me
for some unknown reason ?
Its hard to tell as the picture is so dark.
The approach looked pretty skillful to me
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I would disagree. Landing with the disc over the waiting pax is a completely unnecessary risk. Good pilots accept minimum risk possible throughout the flight envelope.
I would not take much imagination to turn what looks like a slick approach into a field of chopped mince given the slightest malfunction or control issue.
I'm my view a very poor example of airmanship. Pressure from the company or pax would be no different if he choose to land at a safe distance. It's should never be an excuse.
I would not take much imagination to turn what looks like a slick approach into a field of chopped mince given the slightest malfunction or control issue.
I'm my view a very poor example of airmanship. Pressure from the company or pax would be no different if he choose to land at a safe distance. It's should never be an excuse.
Very similar to a military pickup of troops on the ground, minimise the effort in carrying equipment to the machine - the dude on this side just popped the external tray and loaded in without having to take a step. Carrying skis/poles to a helicopter has the possibility of a rotor strike, but keeping them horizontal like he did took away any risk.
Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, it's now a cleaning rag.
Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, it's now a cleaning rag.
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Pretty much a normal in all respects for operators in and around the Alps. The previous poster is right, when you have big time constraints and you have to do the same thing in cargo ops, maybe 150+ times a day, you don't waste unnecessary time pissing about! As for the disc over the pax...you place the aircraft as close to the ground crew/ski guide as possible. Especially in deep snow and high altitude - even in a B3 - power is safety and there ain't much of that at the top end of 10000ft.
Landing with the disc over the waiting pax is a completely unnecessary risk
The 212 slows down in a quite nose high attitude reducing forward visibility. So in going sideways one ensures a permanent eye contact with the pax.
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There are many components we don't know that affect this approach and it is so easy to make a judgment looking at a little video.
For me, it looks like that the pilot made a downwind approach and turned in to the wind at the landing site. Would make sense, cause he wants to depart in to the wind.
The landing site is probably used thousands of times a season and this may have been approach #120 that day. If you are in "production" flying, every second counts. Don't belief it?
Lets say, as someone mentions, there are 120 landings a day and the difference between a "good" pilot and a "not so good" pilot (supposedly there is such a thing) is 10 seconds of flight time a turn around. That would make it, 120 times 10 seconds =20 minutes of flight time a day. I am not sure what the cost of a 212/minute is, but lets make it $50 to the customer, that would come out as $1000 a day. That is a lot of cash! If the pilot is not able to make up that time, he will be gone fairly quick.
Yes, I have been there done that. Production is a hard job and I would consider Heli-Skiing as hard production flying. I admit it, I was there flying 145 rotations within a 7 hour day of flight time, looking and checking the other aircraft going up and down the mountain, all day every day and trying to find a few more seconds to get ahead of the competition. I made it, as supposedly I was one of the "good" ones. However, I was more than happy when I finally had a chance to leave that environment over twenty years ago.
If you have not been there, please don't judge anyone doing his/her job. The competition is hard. Yes, there is stupid stuff out there but this approach is definitely not one to criticize. And yes, I do know the difference of a good pilot in the eyes of the employer and his peers...big difference as we know
For me, it looks like that the pilot made a downwind approach and turned in to the wind at the landing site. Would make sense, cause he wants to depart in to the wind.
The landing site is probably used thousands of times a season and this may have been approach #120 that day. If you are in "production" flying, every second counts. Don't belief it?
Lets say, as someone mentions, there are 120 landings a day and the difference between a "good" pilot and a "not so good" pilot (supposedly there is such a thing) is 10 seconds of flight time a turn around. That would make it, 120 times 10 seconds =20 minutes of flight time a day. I am not sure what the cost of a 212/minute is, but lets make it $50 to the customer, that would come out as $1000 a day. That is a lot of cash! If the pilot is not able to make up that time, he will be gone fairly quick.
Yes, I have been there done that. Production is a hard job and I would consider Heli-Skiing as hard production flying. I admit it, I was there flying 145 rotations within a 7 hour day of flight time, looking and checking the other aircraft going up and down the mountain, all day every day and trying to find a few more seconds to get ahead of the competition. I made it, as supposedly I was one of the "good" ones. However, I was more than happy when I finally had a chance to leave that environment over twenty years ago.
If you have not been there, please don't judge anyone doing his/her job. The competition is hard. Yes, there is stupid stuff out there but this approach is definitely not one to criticize. And yes, I do know the difference of a good pilot in the eyes of the employer and his peers...big difference as we know
Avoid imitations
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I'd say there was a slight downwind component on the initial approach. Look at how the first blowing snow occurs almost right under the disc, despite the aircraft's quite high groundspeed). If the aircraft was approaching into wind, the blowing snow would have been further behind as the downwash first touched the surface. This would explain why the pilot chose a shallow approach angle and kept his airspeed up for as long as possible.
To the left of the picture is another helicopter, running on the ground. To approach the pad into wind over it would have been unwise.
It appears that this was a well rehearsed scenario and the passengers were obviously well briefed.
To the left of the picture is another helicopter, running on the ground. To approach the pad into wind over it would have been unwise.
It appears that this was a well rehearsed scenario and the passengers were obviously well briefed.
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landing in between the guide and the skiiers (that is what this is; heliskiing) is accepted practice. the typical landings are staked on what is likely the only flat spot available. would you as a guide or pilot prefer to have a tightly bunched group of people next to the a/c where you know where they are or have them walking (have you ever tried to herd cats) towards an a/c that is sunk into the belly in snow in uneven terrain? we must keep in mind that there is little skiing in the prairies.
at the larger operators the safety briefings (both video and with the a/c by pilot and guide) in skiing are very comprehensive and the guides are not afraid to give a guest a good solid talking to if they are not behaving appropriately around the a/c. i cannot speak for the smaller but would hope they do it the same way...
as mentioned, the 212 in this case will have been empty so good power reserves, probably at low elevation due to the lack of snow and other a/c in the vicinity. i believe CMH run 4 groups in a 212 so the drivers of these machines have to maximize the production. people pay a lot of money for this and the skiing business is very competitive now in canada.
i have no problem with this.
fp
at the larger operators the safety briefings (both video and with the a/c by pilot and guide) in skiing are very comprehensive and the guides are not afraid to give a guest a good solid talking to if they are not behaving appropriately around the a/c. i cannot speak for the smaller but would hope they do it the same way...
as mentioned, the 212 in this case will have been empty so good power reserves, probably at low elevation due to the lack of snow and other a/c in the vicinity. i believe CMH run 4 groups in a 212 so the drivers of these machines have to maximize the production. people pay a lot of money for this and the skiing business is very competitive now in canada.
i have no problem with this.
fp
It is the sort of approach taught to SAR pilots for use in the mountains when the approach is from a downwind position but you need to end up into wind for the landing/hover/winching. it is particularly good when low cloud or narrow valleys above the LS preclude a standard 180 valley approach.
It is initiated from about 40 kts with pedal and cross controlling (lateral and fwd cyclic) is used to maintain translational lift throughout.
It is an extremely safe approach when flown well (which this one seems to be).
Having the pax inside the disc is standard for snow landings as they can be your only hover reference.
It is initiated from about 40 kts with pedal and cross controlling (lateral and fwd cyclic) is used to maintain translational lift throughout.
It is an extremely safe approach when flown well (which this one seems to be).
Having the pax inside the disc is standard for snow landings as they can be your only hover reference.
