UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 5
So in the case if a misper task for example, that would be even before houses, , under beds, wardrobes, back gardens, sheds and local surrounds have been searched, friends contacted and phones pinged!
Shouldn't the clock start when the experienced TFO or POLSA decides the next best appropriate course of action is air support?
Shouldn't the clock start when the experienced TFO or POLSA decides the next best appropriate course of action is air support?
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So in the case if a misper task for example, that would be even before houses, , under beds, wardrobes, back gardens, sheds and local surrounds have been searched, friends contacted and phones pinged!
Shouldn't the clock start when the experienced TFO or POLSA decides the next best appropriate course of action is air support?
Shouldn't the clock start when the experienced TFO or POLSA decides the next best appropriate course of action is air support?
Which is the point when the bobby on the street decides that he wants Air Support.
No wonder these 20/15 minute circles continue to bear no relevance in this discussion, and begins to explain why we usually have to turn back with only a minute or two left to arrive on scene after a 15 minute transit!
The problem with those range rings is that they depict theoretical COVER, and not effective and efficient AIR Support.
We used to have pretty effective and efficient operational air support with neighboring units covering each others in the event of down time.
What we have today is a mere shadow of that earlier effective operational support. Transit times can now be far too long, and the resultant effectiveness on arrival markedly reduced.
We are not far off of losing it all together. Who wants to pay for the toy now that the theorists and accountants have broken it?
TF
We used to have pretty effective and efficient operational air support with neighboring units covering each others in the event of down time.
What we have today is a mere shadow of that earlier effective operational support. Transit times can now be far too long, and the resultant effectiveness on arrival markedly reduced.
We are not far off of losing it all together. Who wants to pay for the toy now that the theorists and accountants have broken it?
TF
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We could look at maps such as this one;
...or we could look at maps such as this one, but how long would it be before someone said, "What about Lovejoy and Jonathan Creek!"
Brum can have Peaky Blinders
...or we could look at maps such as this one, but how long would it be before someone said, "What about Lovejoy and Jonathan Creek!"
Brum can have Peaky Blinders
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I Like that map, as relevant as any of the 20 minute circle fantasy efforts.
Living very near 'Aidensfield' proves when you've got Alf Ventress and his bike on 24 hour call, you don't need NPAS.
Living very near 'Aidensfield' proves when you've got Alf Ventress and his bike on 24 hour call, you don't need NPAS.
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Tigerfish, what makes you say that support from neighbouring bases is now a mere shadow compared to pre NPAS?
What evidence do you have to back this up?
Since I've been part of NPAS I've had quite a few jobs where we have requested another aircraft whilst airborne. This provides a seamless handover with ground units and control rooms and means no loss of service due to fuel. It's also very easy to do as we are all on the same radio channels. That didn't happen before NPAS.
Looking at the NPAS Twitter accounts I've seen Benson, Birmingham, Bournemouth, Halfpenny Green, Exeter and St Athan all going into Bristol for jobs. Did this happen before NPAS when you worked there?
I think your way off the mark with your comments and you appear just to be jumping on the NPAS bashing bandwagon.
What evidence do you have to back this up?
Since I've been part of NPAS I've had quite a few jobs where we have requested another aircraft whilst airborne. This provides a seamless handover with ground units and control rooms and means no loss of service due to fuel. It's also very easy to do as we are all on the same radio channels. That didn't happen before NPAS.
Looking at the NPAS Twitter accounts I've seen Benson, Birmingham, Bournemouth, Halfpenny Green, Exeter and St Athan all going into Bristol for jobs. Did this happen before NPAS when you worked there?
I think your way off the mark with your comments and you appear just to be jumping on the NPAS bashing bandwagon.
Since I've been part of NPAS I've had quite a few jobs where we have requested another aircraft whilst airborne. This provides a seamless handover with ground units and control rooms and means no loss of service due to fuel. It's also very easy to do as we are all on the same radio channels.
That didn't happen before NPAS.
Since I've been part of NPAS I've had quite a few jobs where we have requested another aircraft whilst airborne. This provides a seamless handover with ground units and control rooms and means no loss of service due to fuel. It's also very easy to do as we are all on the same radio channels.
That didn't happen before NPAS.
It was even more "seamless" back then, because they didn't have to go via a control room and the approval process.
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Another busy day on Humberside
From the Grimbsy Telegraph
The Humberside Police helicopter crew have recounted a potentially "dangerous" incident as they photographed the scene of a crash in Grimsby.
The Oscar99 crew were above Bethlehem Street in Grimsby this morning after two pedestrians were involved in a collision with a van.
Afterwards, the crew took to Twitter to describe the 'vortex ring' incident.
In a series of tweets, they said: "Settled now after a nerve wracking Vortex ring incident mid Photo Task, Not pleasant when the door is open and you're clinging on.
Read more: Police helicopter crew reveal 'vortex ring' scare over Grimsby as they photographed crash scene | Grimsby Telegraph
Follow us: @GrimsbyTel on Twitter | grimsbytel on Facebook
So what exactly is the point of a helicopter for a RTA?
PCSO on a moped could have done the job
As for dementia patients and vulnerable people. Tag them or chip them. PCSO's with a drone and an Ipad can then do most of the time wasting work for a fraction of the cost.
The Humberside Police helicopter crew have recounted a potentially "dangerous" incident as they photographed the scene of a crash in Grimsby.
The Oscar99 crew were above Bethlehem Street in Grimsby this morning after two pedestrians were involved in a collision with a van.
Afterwards, the crew took to Twitter to describe the 'vortex ring' incident.
In a series of tweets, they said: "Settled now after a nerve wracking Vortex ring incident mid Photo Task, Not pleasant when the door is open and you're clinging on.
Read more: Police helicopter crew reveal 'vortex ring' scare over Grimsby as they photographed crash scene | Grimsby Telegraph
Follow us: @GrimsbyTel on Twitter | grimsbytel on Facebook
So what exactly is the point of a helicopter for a RTA?
PCSO on a moped could have done the job
As for dementia patients and vulnerable people. Tag them or chip them. PCSO's with a drone and an Ipad can then do most of the time wasting work for a fraction of the cost.
Is this a wind up?
It's bad enough this pilot getting into IVR in the first place - FFS
But then to advertise it all over social media - is he delirious or what?
Their UEO or whoever runs the otufit these days needs to give this t*at a one way conversation.
Unprofessional on two fronts or what?
It's bad enough this pilot getting into IVR in the first place - FFS
But then to advertise it all over social media - is he delirious or what?
Their UEO or whoever runs the otufit these days needs to give this t*at a one way conversation.
Unprofessional on two fronts or what?
RP,
In the event of a serious RTC the ASU are tasked with gathering aerial photos of the scene as evidence in any prosecution.
Yes a drone could do it but NPAS don't have any......yet.
It's called a secondary task and usually carried out on return from another more urgent task.
But you would know this.
In the event of a serious RTC the ASU are tasked with gathering aerial photos of the scene as evidence in any prosecution.
Yes a drone could do it but NPAS don't have any......yet.
It's called a secondary task and usually carried out on return from another more urgent task.
But you would know this.
Since I've been part of NPAS I've had quite a few jobs where we have requested another aircraft whilst airborne. This provides a seamless handover with ground units and control rooms and means no loss of service due to fuel. It's also very easy to do as we are all on the same radio channels. That didn't happen before NPAS.
NPAS are simply reinventing the wheel.
My unit was part of a regional collaboration and it was very easy to get another a/c to come and take over a task..!!
All we did was shout up on TG for that a/c...
no need to go thru a centralised control room.
Of course because we had only short transit times, and being based where the demand was, we rarely had to do so..!
Very few jobs took more than 90 minutes to resolve.
Nowadays of course I hear 30/40 min transit times are common..
Drones...??
really..!!!
Fine until the wind gets up above 8kts..
or the job takes more than 11 minutes
or there's people and buildings around
Last edited by backtothebeat; 26th Feb 2015 at 17:28. Reason: addition
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
With the Red Arrows about to enter another display season at a cost of c£10 million to the taxpayer, perhaps they could be put to use for the direct benefit of the public in general.
RAF Red Arrows - Request a display or flypast
Misper Search Application Form;
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/rafcms/me...A5366B8380.doc
We need a coordinate of the location of your misper search – Follow steps a-h as required below. Erroneous coordinates will mean your misper search is rejected.
a. Use the Google Maps website - http://maps.google.co.uk/
b. Find your misper search location. Use ‘Satellite’ to see photo of the area and zoom in.
THE FOLLOWING STEPS VARY DEPENDING ON YOUR INTERNET BROWSER.
c. Place cursor over the position where you would like the misper search.
and right-click the mouse – (If nothing happens go to step g)
d. Select ‘What’s here’ from menu.
e. A ‘Green’ arrow will appear over your misper position.
f. Hover the cursor over the Green arrow and copy the numbers EXACTLY as they appear below. These numbers are the coordinates of your flypast position. Eg: 53.746750, -3.026733.
If nothing happened at step c then:
g. Place cursor over the position where you would like the misper search and left-click the mouse
h. Copy the numbers EXACTLY as they appear in the box that opens in the top left corner; these numbers are the coordinates of your misper search position. Eg: 53 26.467, 1 21.456
e. Copy coordinates here:_______________________________________________________ ___
FURTHER ESSENTIAL INFORMATION
If this section is incomplete then a misper flypast cannot be planned
Date
(eg. 17 Jun 12) Event start
(hh:mm) Event end
(hh:mm) Describe flypast location precisely,
eg William Farr School Playing Fields, Welton Village, 6km NE of Lincoln, Lincs
MISPER SEARCH CONFIRMATION IS NORMALLY GIVEN APPROX 1 to 2 WEEKS AFTER MISPER HAS GONE MIS The MoD are under no obligation to provide any services on the completion of this form and a misper search may be cancelled at short notice due to unforeseen circumstances
Notes for completing a Red Arrows Misper Search Application
Red Arrows Misper Searches are free; they take place when the Team is transiting from one airfield to another during the display season, which runs from the last weekend in May until the end of September. Red 1 is able to make small deviations to the route for a misper search , but the event must be located broadly along the route of the day. For example, if the Team is transiting from Bournemouth to Norwich, events roughly along a line Bournemouth→Oxford→Milton Keynes→Cambridge→Norwich would be suitable for a misper search . Therefore, some luck is required that the Reds will be in the right part of the country at the right time, but there are often 2 routes in a day which cover large parts of the UK. Due to the many airspace restrictions around the UK, the route the aircraft fly is often complex, so it is worth submitting an application even if your misper search does not appear to lie directly between 2 display venues (see RAF Red Arrows - Home for the display calendar). On the day, many factors (such as poor weather) can affect the route, and although Red 1 will strive to do the misper search, the Team cannot guarantee attendance.
When you complete the application form, please note the following:
1. Please return the form to the RAF Air Events Team at RAF Northolt by one of the methods at the top of the form. The RAF Air Events Team is the tasking authority for the Red Arrows.
2. Please provide as many contact details as possible, but particularly a contact number for the day. The Red Arrows pilot who plans the misper search will contact you during planning to check the exact location, and possibly again on the day to confirm times. Coordinates are important to the pilots, so please try to be as accurate as possible. Complete steps a-h in the red box on the application form carefully.
3. The ‘Further Essential Information’ section is important. Please ensure it is filled in, paying particular attention to the timings of your misper search. The search start and end times should be as accurate as possible to ensure that the greatest window of opportunity is provided, given the nature of how misper searches are flown. The location description should be written to help the Team find exactly on a map where your misper search is – the pilot will have no local knowledge. For example, ‘in the playing fields immediately to the south side of the Botham Sports Centre, Cricketers Road, Luckytown’ will help the planning pilot find the exact spot.
4. Flypasts by the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team, the Red Arrows, are not permitted at private functions such as weddings, funerals, birthdays or at events that are closed to the general public.
I'll just add a 20 minute circle out of Scampton to the maps
RAF Red Arrows - Request a display or flypast
Misper Search Application Form;
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/rafcms/me...A5366B8380.doc
We need a coordinate of the location of your misper search – Follow steps a-h as required below. Erroneous coordinates will mean your misper search is rejected.
a. Use the Google Maps website - http://maps.google.co.uk/
b. Find your misper search location. Use ‘Satellite’ to see photo of the area and zoom in.
THE FOLLOWING STEPS VARY DEPENDING ON YOUR INTERNET BROWSER.
c. Place cursor over the position where you would like the misper search.
and right-click the mouse – (If nothing happens go to step g)
d. Select ‘What’s here’ from menu.
e. A ‘Green’ arrow will appear over your misper position.
f. Hover the cursor over the Green arrow and copy the numbers EXACTLY as they appear below. These numbers are the coordinates of your flypast position. Eg: 53.746750, -3.026733.
If nothing happened at step c then:
g. Place cursor over the position where you would like the misper search and left-click the mouse
h. Copy the numbers EXACTLY as they appear in the box that opens in the top left corner; these numbers are the coordinates of your misper search position. Eg: 53 26.467, 1 21.456
e. Copy coordinates here:_______________________________________________________ ___
FURTHER ESSENTIAL INFORMATION
If this section is incomplete then a misper flypast cannot be planned
Date
(eg. 17 Jun 12) Event start
(hh:mm) Event end
(hh:mm) Describe flypast location precisely,
eg William Farr School Playing Fields, Welton Village, 6km NE of Lincoln, Lincs
MISPER SEARCH CONFIRMATION IS NORMALLY GIVEN APPROX 1 to 2 WEEKS AFTER MISPER HAS GONE MIS The MoD are under no obligation to provide any services on the completion of this form and a misper search may be cancelled at short notice due to unforeseen circumstances
Notes for completing a Red Arrows Misper Search Application
Red Arrows Misper Searches are free; they take place when the Team is transiting from one airfield to another during the display season, which runs from the last weekend in May until the end of September. Red 1 is able to make small deviations to the route for a misper search , but the event must be located broadly along the route of the day. For example, if the Team is transiting from Bournemouth to Norwich, events roughly along a line Bournemouth→Oxford→Milton Keynes→Cambridge→Norwich would be suitable for a misper search . Therefore, some luck is required that the Reds will be in the right part of the country at the right time, but there are often 2 routes in a day which cover large parts of the UK. Due to the many airspace restrictions around the UK, the route the aircraft fly is often complex, so it is worth submitting an application even if your misper search does not appear to lie directly between 2 display venues (see RAF Red Arrows - Home for the display calendar). On the day, many factors (such as poor weather) can affect the route, and although Red 1 will strive to do the misper search, the Team cannot guarantee attendance.
When you complete the application form, please note the following:
1. Please return the form to the RAF Air Events Team at RAF Northolt by one of the methods at the top of the form. The RAF Air Events Team is the tasking authority for the Red Arrows.
2. Please provide as many contact details as possible, but particularly a contact number for the day. The Red Arrows pilot who plans the misper search will contact you during planning to check the exact location, and possibly again on the day to confirm times. Coordinates are important to the pilots, so please try to be as accurate as possible. Complete steps a-h in the red box on the application form carefully.
3. The ‘Further Essential Information’ section is important. Please ensure it is filled in, paying particular attention to the timings of your misper search. The search start and end times should be as accurate as possible to ensure that the greatest window of opportunity is provided, given the nature of how misper searches are flown. The location description should be written to help the Team find exactly on a map where your misper search is – the pilot will have no local knowledge. For example, ‘in the playing fields immediately to the south side of the Botham Sports Centre, Cricketers Road, Luckytown’ will help the planning pilot find the exact spot.
4. Flypasts by the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team, the Red Arrows, are not permitted at private functions such as weddings, funerals, birthdays or at events that are closed to the general public.
I'll just add a 20 minute circle out of Scampton to the maps
TFO,
What I was saying was this. In the old days units were aware that their neighbors might be down due to defect or maintenance and we covered them until they were back up. But most of the time they were there, and the true area that we covered was manageable. Today the bases are too far apart and the jam spread too thin.
I wonder why all those aircraft from so far away call in at Bristol, they must be doing a hell of a lot of flying around but are they doing Police Work?
I am not bashing NPAS for bashing's sake. Indeed I have argued for a Nationally organized Police Air wing since the early 1990's.
BUT it was always proposed that a National Police Air wing would Increase cover and efficiency. Cost savings made by economies of scale in fuel purchasing, maintenance and insurance etc etc NOT by reducing the fleet and coverage.
NPAS was not created to increase efficiency but merely and only to save money, and for that reason it simply cannot work. For air support to work properly it needs to be quickly on scene and easily summoned.
Early lessons were forgotten saving money the only mantra.
TF
What I was saying was this. In the old days units were aware that their neighbors might be down due to defect or maintenance and we covered them until they were back up. But most of the time they were there, and the true area that we covered was manageable. Today the bases are too far apart and the jam spread too thin.
I wonder why all those aircraft from so far away call in at Bristol, they must be doing a hell of a lot of flying around but are they doing Police Work?
I am not bashing NPAS for bashing's sake. Indeed I have argued for a Nationally organized Police Air wing since the early 1990's.
BUT it was always proposed that a National Police Air wing would Increase cover and efficiency. Cost savings made by economies of scale in fuel purchasing, maintenance and insurance etc etc NOT by reducing the fleet and coverage.
NPAS was not created to increase efficiency but merely and only to save money, and for that reason it simply cannot work. For air support to work properly it needs to be quickly on scene and easily summoned.
Early lessons were forgotten saving money the only mantra.
TF
It's a fair arguement to make that budgets need to be cut and air support needs to modernise, because they do. But, the question needs to be asked, is the new model the best model.
The new 'NPAS operating model' is based on, and I quote, 'threat, risk and harm'. I have challanged, what threat? what risk? and what harm?
I was told to think about it like this. Units will be required to respond to tasking in this order of priority;
The problem is, not all ASU's do the same work. Never have done and never will. You can't shoe-horn them all into the same 'operating model'. Some units spend hours and hours on proactive patrols, (the Stone Roses gig at Finsbury park was ruined by the MET ASU sitting over it for nearly 2 hours. Why?). Other units spend the bulk of hours on rural misper searches.
And this brings me to my main point. If the main priority for air support is saving life - and it should be - why not close the urban bases and keep the rural ones open.
I will bet my bottom dollar that the likes of Rhuddlan, Ripley, Warton, Wattisham and Husbands Bosworth have located more vunerable missing persons, (and by that I mean suicidal, elderly, children), and saved their lives than the MET ever will do with their 3 aircraft.
The new 'NPAS operating model' is based on, and I quote, 'threat, risk and harm'. I have challanged, what threat? what risk? and what harm?
I was told to think about it like this. Units will be required to respond to tasking in this order of priority;
- Counter terrorism / major incident, (protecting the public/life saving incidents)
- Immediate response police work, (pursuits/search for suspects/firearms etc.)
- Admin tasks, (photos for ops planning/TI searches/work for other agencies)
The problem is, not all ASU's do the same work. Never have done and never will. You can't shoe-horn them all into the same 'operating model'. Some units spend hours and hours on proactive patrols, (the Stone Roses gig at Finsbury park was ruined by the MET ASU sitting over it for nearly 2 hours. Why?). Other units spend the bulk of hours on rural misper searches.
And this brings me to my main point. If the main priority for air support is saving life - and it should be - why not close the urban bases and keep the rural ones open.
I will bet my bottom dollar that the likes of Rhuddlan, Ripley, Warton, Wattisham and Husbands Bosworth have located more vunerable missing persons, (and by that I mean suicidal, elderly, children), and saved their lives than the MET ever will do with their 3 aircraft.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Sky Sports;
Finding missing persons isn't the only way of saving lives in this job. I guess we will never know how many lives units such as the Met have saved, and will continue to save while carrying out their 'duties'.
And this brings me to my main point. If the main priority for air support is saving life - and it should be - why not close the urban bases and keep the rural ones open.
I will bet my bottom dollar that the likes of Rhuddlan, Ripley, Warton, Wattisham and Husbands Bosworth have located more vunerable missing persons, (and by that I mean suicidal, elderly, children), and saved their lives than the MET ever will do with their 3 aircraft.
I will bet my bottom dollar that the likes of Rhuddlan, Ripley, Warton, Wattisham and Husbands Bosworth have located more vunerable missing persons, (and by that I mean suicidal, elderly, children), and saved their lives than the MET ever will do with their 3 aircraft.
Finding missing persons isn't the only way of saving lives in this job. I guess we will never know how many lives units such as the Met have saved, and will continue to save while carrying out their 'duties'.
Finding missing persons isn't the only way of saving lives in this job. I guess we will never know how many lives units such as the Met have saved, and will continue to save while carrying out their 'duties'.
Only yesterday, terrorists MIGHT have planned to wipe out Scarborough with a dirty bomb until they saw the Teesside machine fly over. Just like the MET might have saved some. Truth is, we just don't know. Only got easytask to go on.
P.S. pleased you didn't deny that the rural machines do save a lot of lives.