USCG stuck: Bodega Bay
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So I have over 21,000 hours rotorcraft....big deal. Does that make me an expert, hardly. The learning curve as a pilot continues to the day one hangs up the helmet (or headset). I actually feel sorry for you pprt .....your condescending attitude with what you consider your superior knowledge is a dangerous attitude when it comes to airmanship.....I wish you safe flying, because your naive enough to get yourself into some serious trouble without knowing it if you actually do fly....mind you, your probably a sunny Sunday plank driver anyways.
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Helilog56- I have zero hours in rotorcraft. Does that mean I don't have common sense, hardly. Maybe you haven't been following along, but learning is what I've been doing, and safety is what I'm advocating. I feel sorry for YOU, I'll soon depart this blizzard of BS and you'll still be up to your neck.
It's very simple. They picked an unsafe place to land when there were safe places nearby. Having picked and unsafe place they should have aborted the landing and tried elsewhere. You don't need 20,000 hours in rotorcraft to see the truth in that.
I've obviously broken a taboo by criticizing this landing, but I see that as your problem, not mine. Professionals? Not as I define professional. Now this guy is professional.
It's very simple. They picked an unsafe place to land when there were safe places nearby. Having picked and unsafe place they should have aborted the landing and tried elsewhere. You don't need 20,000 hours in rotorcraft to see the truth in that.
I've obviously broken a taboo by criticizing this landing, but I see that as your problem, not mine. Professionals? Not as I define professional. Now this guy is professional.
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What!! You have zero hours in rotorcraft and yet you seem to think your opinions based on zero experience are more valid than the professional pilots on here who, as I have said before, have been there and done that.
Your criticisms of the manner in which the Coast Guard pilots concerned were doing their job is as valid as me using 'common sense' and criticising the manner in which a brain surgeon carries out his profession. Zero validity!
I flew helicopters for just under 40 years, both military and civil. I was still learning about my profession until the day I retired. As I didn't have enough time to make all the possible mistakes myself I tried to learn from the mistakes of others and to recognise when things were being done well. These Coast Guard guys didn't make a error, they made the correct decisions. One thing I never did is to take advice from an armchair troll like you, PrivtPilotRadarTech, about how to do my job.
Guys, haven't we fed this troll enough? He's never going to accept anything we say and we are achieving nothing. This thread is dead as far as I am concerned so I'm off to the next one.
Your criticisms of the manner in which the Coast Guard pilots concerned were doing their job is as valid as me using 'common sense' and criticising the manner in which a brain surgeon carries out his profession. Zero validity!
I flew helicopters for just under 40 years, both military and civil. I was still learning about my profession until the day I retired. As I didn't have enough time to make all the possible mistakes myself I tried to learn from the mistakes of others and to recognise when things were being done well. These Coast Guard guys didn't make a error, they made the correct decisions. One thing I never did is to take advice from an armchair troll like you, PrivtPilotRadarTech, about how to do my job.
Guys, haven't we fed this troll enough? He's never going to accept anything we say and we are achieving nothing. This thread is dead as far as I am concerned so I'm off to the next one.
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PrivPil:
the landing was definitely safe, the only injured person has fallen off the verge of a cliff…
In this case the airframe is not broken, apparently not even a scratch.
Why? Perhaps because the crew tried to avoid unsafe actions, either aborting the landing or taking off from an unsafe position in marginal weather conditions? The decision is always with the pilot(s) and need to be respected.
The aircraft and crew are required for the next rescue as well.
If you doubt then don't. Every pilot, either professional or not, has the very own skills and limitation, on that day in that moment and situation, which he or she needs to understand and respect.
Please tell everybody again what you believe is common sense.
the landing was definitely safe, the only injured person has fallen off the verge of a cliff…
In this case the airframe is not broken, apparently not even a scratch.
Why? Perhaps because the crew tried to avoid unsafe actions, either aborting the landing or taking off from an unsafe position in marginal weather conditions? The decision is always with the pilot(s) and need to be respected.
The aircraft and crew are required for the next rescue as well.
If you doubt then don't. Every pilot, either professional or not, has the very own skills and limitation, on that day in that moment and situation, which he or she needs to understand and respect.
Please tell everybody again what you believe is common sense.
How It Is Done
PPRT referenced the Jim McCullough article:
" If the pilot determines that he is approaching the limit of lateral cyclic control margin prior to being firmly planted on the slope with collective reduced to low power it is his responsibility to abort the landing attempt."
Certainly conservative and safe advice, but there is some official guidance at odds with his writing as promulgated by the US Army for the UTTAS design which I will paraphrase. The Army required those competing aircraft to land at 12 degree slopes from any angle and 15 degree slopes laterally. Full control was allowed to be used. Full control was in fact required for the left wheel upslope condition. I believe we used full aft control for the nose down slope ( at most forward CG ) as well.
Guess we were being absolutely unprofessional. Didn't know any better. Shucks.
" If the pilot determines that he is approaching the limit of lateral cyclic control margin prior to being firmly planted on the slope with collective reduced to low power it is his responsibility to abort the landing attempt."
Certainly conservative and safe advice, but there is some official guidance at odds with his writing as promulgated by the US Army for the UTTAS design which I will paraphrase. The Army required those competing aircraft to land at 12 degree slopes from any angle and 15 degree slopes laterally. Full control was allowed to be used. Full control was in fact required for the left wheel upslope condition. I believe we used full aft control for the nose down slope ( at most forward CG ) as well.
Guess we were being absolutely unprofessional. Didn't know any better. Shucks.
Last edited by JohnDixson; 20th Nov 2014 at 12:20. Reason: Added thought
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Fortunately Pprune provides for the ultimate Safety Device when it comes to Trolls. Done....not to hear from this guy again. :roll eyes:
In Radar Tech terms....I just turned the Gain Control to eliminate bogus returns.
In Radar Tech terms....I just turned the Gain Control to eliminate bogus returns.
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Operational Experience vs Manual Limits
PVTPLT,
Something to consider while you're learning: We weren't there.
If the fog was blamed, I have to assume they couldn't see the better landing options. Likewise, I assume they knew they were right at the limit for their slope limitations and chose to continue the landing. All that makes me think they were concerned that the fog was getting worse and were at risk of losing control of the aircraft. What I don't know is the particular avionics fit on that aircraft or the maintenance status, I also don't know if the pilot was already starting to experience spatial disorientation; all of which would play into the a decision to land vice perform an ITO, declare an emergency and fly home IFR.
For you to dig up a flight manual quote without asking about all the factors that actually affect in flight decisions shows your inexperience. In any event like this there is rarely black and white, things are mostly grey. At the end of the day, this worked out good. That doesn't mean there isn't learning to be had or things to do different next time, but hand wringing about unprofessional behavior based on what your non-flight approved GPS shows is not helpful for anyone.
I suggest you learn to listen more, speak less and ask questions from those more experienced than you before passing judgement. You may be on to something despite others experience, but you need to do the due diligence to make sure you're right before telling the emperor he's naked. When you don't, you get what you have here; the experienced folks ignore you.
Busdriver
Something to consider while you're learning: We weren't there.
If the fog was blamed, I have to assume they couldn't see the better landing options. Likewise, I assume they knew they were right at the limit for their slope limitations and chose to continue the landing. All that makes me think they were concerned that the fog was getting worse and were at risk of losing control of the aircraft. What I don't know is the particular avionics fit on that aircraft or the maintenance status, I also don't know if the pilot was already starting to experience spatial disorientation; all of which would play into the a decision to land vice perform an ITO, declare an emergency and fly home IFR.
For you to dig up a flight manual quote without asking about all the factors that actually affect in flight decisions shows your inexperience. In any event like this there is rarely black and white, things are mostly grey. At the end of the day, this worked out good. That doesn't mean there isn't learning to be had or things to do different next time, but hand wringing about unprofessional behavior based on what your non-flight approved GPS shows is not helpful for anyone.
I suggest you learn to listen more, speak less and ask questions from those more experienced than you before passing judgement. You may be on to something despite others experience, but you need to do the due diligence to make sure you're right before telling the emperor he's naked. When you don't, you get what you have here; the experienced folks ignore you.
Busdriver
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Gordy- good question. No, I have nothing to do with the sheriff, don't know any of them, etc. The helicopter crew seems very effective, they do a lot with what they have. Perhaps you read this article, which I linked previously:
Sonoma County helicopter pilot honored for daring rescue | The Press Democrat
They flew 250 miles to do a rescue the Coasties refused to complete, and now the pilot has been named "Pilot of the Year". It was a stranded SAR team he rescued; imagine how that played out in the SAR community.
Here are some photos showing the lay of the land at the Bodega Bay incident. The first one shows where the Coasties landed and took off, the people in the background are at the cliff edge. The sheriff happened to fly by, the photo was taken beside a paved rd. (you have to copy and paste those links, they don't seem to work when clicked)
http://1drv.ms/1vuyE7z
The next one shows the flat ground to the right of the first photo. I could have landed my Cessna there. You can see the tracks the firefighters left.
http://1drv.ms/1vuA9mi
You boys take a good look at that. Good news- the 4 yr old boy has regained consciousness. Astounding.
Sonoma County helicopter pilot honored for daring rescue | The Press Democrat
They flew 250 miles to do a rescue the Coasties refused to complete, and now the pilot has been named "Pilot of the Year". It was a stranded SAR team he rescued; imagine how that played out in the SAR community.
Here are some photos showing the lay of the land at the Bodega Bay incident. The first one shows where the Coasties landed and took off, the people in the background are at the cliff edge. The sheriff happened to fly by, the photo was taken beside a paved rd. (you have to copy and paste those links, they don't seem to work when clicked)
http://1drv.ms/1vuyE7z
The next one shows the flat ground to the right of the first photo. I could have landed my Cessna there. You can see the tracks the firefighters left.
http://1drv.ms/1vuA9mi
You boys take a good look at that. Good news- the 4 yr old boy has regained consciousness. Astounding.
Last edited by PrivtPilotRadarTech; 21st Nov 2014 at 02:36. Reason: Photo links weren't working
I read the article about the SCSO and disagree with their decision to attempt the rescue even though this time it worked out. I believe their risk assessment was flawed or they did not do one. I believe they may have been driven by other factors.
Ass to the Coast Guard Landing---You still don't get it---you were NOT on the aircraft when it landed and are basing your views on a photo taken after the landing. The pilot in command made a decision to land and, stuck by it and no harm was done. He may not have seen the flat field. I will tell you that it is extremely difficult to find flat ground sometimes.
The fog moves quickly in that area....we do NOT know the exact conditions when he landed.
And before you say that I know not of what I speak---I flew in the Bay Area for 8 years full time. I was a pilot with the Contra Costa County Sheriff Department and actually flew the Sonoma guys on a ride along in our 407 BEFORE they bought theirs. I applied for a job with them and chose not to pursue it further after visiting and getting an idea of their "culture". (Admittedly this was 15 years ago--things may have changed).
Ass to the Coast Guard Landing---You still don't get it---you were NOT on the aircraft when it landed and are basing your views on a photo taken after the landing. The pilot in command made a decision to land and, stuck by it and no harm was done. He may not have seen the flat field. I will tell you that it is extremely difficult to find flat ground sometimes.
The fog moves quickly in that area....we do NOT know the exact conditions when he landed.
And before you say that I know not of what I speak---I flew in the Bay Area for 8 years full time. I was a pilot with the Contra Costa County Sheriff Department and actually flew the Sonoma guys on a ride along in our 407 BEFORE they bought theirs. I applied for a job with them and chose not to pursue it further after visiting and getting an idea of their "culture". (Admittedly this was 15 years ago--things may have changed).
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privat pilot, why don't you go out to that place in the middle of a foggy windy night, turn off your car lights, turn the flash off on your camera, then take some photos and see how good they turn out. that is pretty much what you can see out of a helicopter at night.
better still, once you are there, keep your lights off, turn your GPS on, windows up, get someone in the car to point a torch at your eyes flick it on and off occasionally, and squirt the windscreen washer occasionally. now while all that is happening, slowly cruise around that area at a slow helicopter speed of about 40-60 kts. thats about 45-70 miles an hour, after you have done that, come back on here and tell us all how easy it was and that those useless pilots should have killed themselves trying to move a helicopter that HAD ALREADY LANDED SAFELY!!!
better still, once you are there, keep your lights off, turn your GPS on, windows up, get someone in the car to point a torch at your eyes flick it on and off occasionally, and squirt the windscreen washer occasionally. now while all that is happening, slowly cruise around that area at a slow helicopter speed of about 40-60 kts. thats about 45-70 miles an hour, after you have done that, come back on here and tell us all how easy it was and that those useless pilots should have killed themselves trying to move a helicopter that HAD ALREADY LANDED SAFELY!!!
Forget it people, that guy is hopeless. 0 hours rotorcraft but knows all about it, despite a couple hundred thousand hours of combined experience on here all violently disagreeing. This sort of ignorance is beyond all discussion, that's just a case for the ignore function.
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For a guy that said "I'm going to depart this blizzard of BS", you still can't help yourself. For a self professed intellect pprt, your broadcasting "moron"....
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You have to thank the guy tho. He's done something that I haven't seen happen in all the time I've been reading these forums. He's got almost every pilot on here to agree! We've got the Brits, Europeans, Americans, Canadians, Ozzies and Kiwis all agreeing on something.
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PrivtPilotRadarTech
I've never been able to really understand where these people come from or indeed, why they get hooked on a particular story and get so wound up about it.
There's a few names on here that clearly state themselves as non-pilots or non-experts, yet have this furiously aggressive adamancy in certain controversial incidents. These 'names' all seem to be relatively newly registered. Maybe they're all the same person? Who knows.
What I do know, is that these people exhibit classic signs of being the exact kind of person I would never wish to fly with.
To me, this bloke lost his argument when he said:
In the world of aviation, one has to have humility and bags of humbleness to truly learn and live. The arrogant and prideful tend to hurt themselves at some point or another. Or worse; hurt somebody else.
Relax, guys. Don't get yourselves wound up. This person is either simply a troll having a lot of weird fun winding people up, or actually has more knowledge on this incident than is letting on. After all, who in their right sane mind, could possibly have an opinion so strong about how events unfolded when they were not there to see them!? I'm no rocket scientist, but I know that things quite often didn't happen the way one assumes they did. In fact, if you really truly found out how the holes in the swiss cheese did line up, you may be completely surprised!
To make judgements based on no first hand knowledge is folly.
Be nice to each other. It really does make the world a nicer place
There's a few names on here that clearly state themselves as non-pilots or non-experts, yet have this furiously aggressive adamancy in certain controversial incidents. These 'names' all seem to be relatively newly registered. Maybe they're all the same person? Who knows.
What I do know, is that these people exhibit classic signs of being the exact kind of person I would never wish to fly with.
To me, this bloke lost his argument when he said:
I'm assuming that the crew had a gps at least as good as the $99 gps I have, which would show the terrain and roads in the vicinity of the accident.
Relax, guys. Don't get yourselves wound up. This person is either simply a troll having a lot of weird fun winding people up, or actually has more knowledge on this incident than is letting on. After all, who in their right sane mind, could possibly have an opinion so strong about how events unfolded when they were not there to see them!? I'm no rocket scientist, but I know that things quite often didn't happen the way one assumes they did. In fact, if you really truly found out how the holes in the swiss cheese did line up, you may be completely surprised!
To make judgements based on no first hand knowledge is folly.
Be nice to each other. It really does make the world a nicer place
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perhaps Priv Pil comments should be analyzed in depth with all respect to his personality.
How many crashes have to do with ignorance and lack of situational awareness, just recently with some very experienced professional pilots? How often have unexperienced pilots crashes because they have just done what they have been told to do or expected to do, or put themselves under pressure because others did something they wanted to do as well?
I remember a great article by an fw airline pilot . He counted all crashes and incidents where the superior judgement by HUMANS and their very individual skills saved their lives and hundreds of others - in most cases based on long experience but thats not everything one needs to be a safe pilot
If pilots (and all other people) are not allowed to trust their individual judgement? I think we, really we altogether as humans, have lost completely.
btw, Super F, if you split between Brits and Europeans please separate the Austrians as well..
How many crashes have to do with ignorance and lack of situational awareness, just recently with some very experienced professional pilots? How often have unexperienced pilots crashes because they have just done what they have been told to do or expected to do, or put themselves under pressure because others did something they wanted to do as well?
I remember a great article by an fw airline pilot . He counted all crashes and incidents where the superior judgement by HUMANS and their very individual skills saved their lives and hundreds of others - in most cases based on long experience but thats not everything one needs to be a safe pilot
If pilots (and all other people) are not allowed to trust their individual judgement? I think we, really we altogether as humans, have lost completely.
btw, Super F, if you split between Brits and Europeans please separate the Austrians as well..
I thought you had a little corporal with a dodgy moustache for that back in the 1930s
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oh yes the little corporal and all the flies following the brown **** ... a good example for a responsible, sane and solid decision making process within some sort of a cooperate culture.. but surely it wasn't a crash what happened the following decade..:roll eyes:
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Final post
Helilog56, yes, I'm reminded of that Al Pacino line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU
But this is it, last post here. I've put it simply, I've posted links and photos, I've backed up my opinions by quoting an expert. I get a few glimmers of comprehension, but mostly a blizzard of BS. "You need special jacks!" "There was dense fog!" "It was stuck in mud!" "You can't criticize the pilot's judgment, it's not done!" None of that was true, and of course most of the drivel was ad hominem insults with no attempt to address the facts. Boring and unprofessional.
Why am I interested in this incident? It's local, in a very popular place that I've hiked and photographed many times, so I know it better than any of you. I wondered why an undamaged $10 million airframe was sitting there on a broad, treeless, grassy slope. I learned the key word was "slope" and read a tutorial about landing a rotorcraft on a slope. It was quite interesting, I enjoy technical explanations and the science of flight.
I saw the photos and videos shot at the scene, which showed it lit up like a Christmas tree by the firefighters, and good visibility at ground level. I also knew it was parched out there, and later verified it: no mud whatsoever. There were lots of flat places to land, even paved roads and two gravel parking lots 300 yds/meters away, so there was no need to do a slope landing, or even land in a field.
So why was that airframe stuck there? PILOT ERROR. Why was it stuck there for 2 days? That's on the commander. My commander would have had that asset back in service ASAP.
So it's dark, there's a fog layer, wind out of the NW. Your mission is to transport a severely injured 4 yr old boy to the hospital. What do you do? Well heck, I'd land in the friggin' parking lot.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3029...!3m1!1e3?hl=en
This being 2014, I've no doubt the CG has gps with terrain and surely bird's eye view. Just punch those numbers in, it's a clear shot in from the NE. No terrain, trees, or wires, 130' elevation. There's even a privy there, in case my PILOT ERROR comment caused someone to have a bowel movement.
Mission accomplished.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU
But this is it, last post here. I've put it simply, I've posted links and photos, I've backed up my opinions by quoting an expert. I get a few glimmers of comprehension, but mostly a blizzard of BS. "You need special jacks!" "There was dense fog!" "It was stuck in mud!" "You can't criticize the pilot's judgment, it's not done!" None of that was true, and of course most of the drivel was ad hominem insults with no attempt to address the facts. Boring and unprofessional.
Why am I interested in this incident? It's local, in a very popular place that I've hiked and photographed many times, so I know it better than any of you. I wondered why an undamaged $10 million airframe was sitting there on a broad, treeless, grassy slope. I learned the key word was "slope" and read a tutorial about landing a rotorcraft on a slope. It was quite interesting, I enjoy technical explanations and the science of flight.
I saw the photos and videos shot at the scene, which showed it lit up like a Christmas tree by the firefighters, and good visibility at ground level. I also knew it was parched out there, and later verified it: no mud whatsoever. There were lots of flat places to land, even paved roads and two gravel parking lots 300 yds/meters away, so there was no need to do a slope landing, or even land in a field.
So why was that airframe stuck there? PILOT ERROR. Why was it stuck there for 2 days? That's on the commander. My commander would have had that asset back in service ASAP.
So it's dark, there's a fog layer, wind out of the NW. Your mission is to transport a severely injured 4 yr old boy to the hospital. What do you do? Well heck, I'd land in the friggin' parking lot.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3029...!3m1!1e3?hl=en
This being 2014, I've no doubt the CG has gps with terrain and surely bird's eye view. Just punch those numbers in, it's a clear shot in from the NE. No terrain, trees, or wires, 130' elevation. There's even a privy there, in case my PILOT ERROR comment caused someone to have a bowel movement.
Mission accomplished.