Grand Canyon Accident: Pilot killed in AS350 rollover
BB,
Why not? It's positively science fiction compared to the Shuttleworth collection aircraft!
Why not? It's positively science fiction compared to the Shuttleworth collection aircraft!
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Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals on the aircraft by claiming it is not flying when it is rotors turning on the ground?
You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.
The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft. ISTR R22s have an hours run meter which relates to rotors turning time, not airborne time for exactly this reason.
You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.
The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft. ISTR R22s have an hours run meter which relates to rotors turning time, not airborne time for exactly this reason.
I've got copies of the Bell manuals will try to post them, but haven't done it before....
And TC before you tell us what no pilot/operator in their right mind would do, or assume that you know everything about aircraft safety, i'm really worried for your safety, once you cannot be taught anything, it is the start of a slippery slope. Its fine to say that you have never seen that happen, don't think you would do it yourself, etc, however to announce that you know more than a large number of the Aviation Authorities around the world, that individually undertake more flight operations than your British Helicopter Industry, is quite a large step to take.
to the rest of the Brits on here, not having a go at you, just my view on the guy needing to open his eyes to the rest of the world. And insulting the dead isn't nice.
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ok, i cant figure out posting things.
this may work. its a copy directly from the Bell 206 manual. Actually the Bell 204 says the same thing.
Operating time — Actual flight or calendar time
that must be recorded in the Historical Service
Records or in the helicopter logs. The operating
time is specified as:
– Time in service (flight time) — The measured
time that starts the moment the helicopter
leaves the ground and continues until it
touches the ground at the next point of
landing. The time when the helicopter is on
the ground, with the engine and the rotor
turning, is not included.
i highlighted the txt...
this may work. its a copy directly from the Bell 206 manual. Actually the Bell 204 says the same thing.
Operating time — Actual flight or calendar time
that must be recorded in the Historical Service
Records or in the helicopter logs. The operating
time is specified as:
– Time in service (flight time) — The measured
time that starts the moment the helicopter
leaves the ground and continues until it
touches the ground at the next point of
landing. The time when the helicopter is on
the ground, with the engine and the rotor
turning, is not included.
i highlighted the txt...
It would be interesting to know if all manufacturers use the same criteria. Anyone have any information?
Certainly on our aircraft we log rotors running as flight time because our engineering empire tells us to - perhaps it is just a military thing.
Happily looped the Lynx - not sure I'd be quite so comfortable in a S-52
Certainly on our aircraft we log rotors running as flight time because our engineering empire tells us to - perhaps it is just a military thing.
Happily looped the Lynx - not sure I'd be quite so comfortable in a S-52
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I can't help with others, I'm totally a Bell man.
Pretty sure most civilian turbine helicopters are the same, I think pistons should be engine time, although I know as much about non Bell stuff as I do about twin IFR or military stuff, it's all some strange black magic...
Pretty sure most civilian turbine helicopters are the same, I think pistons should be engine time, although I know as much about non Bell stuff as I do about twin IFR or military stuff, it's all some strange black magic...
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My experience with Sikorsky and Airbus is that:
Airborne time is used for Aircraft Time (+ cycles for engines with some manufacturers.)
Rotors Running time is used for Pilot flight hours.
Airborne time is used for Aircraft Time (+ cycles for engines with some manufacturers.)
Rotors Running time is used for Pilot flight hours.
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Same thing here in Canada, terms are slightly different and it's the same for all manufacturers, it's a Transport Canada regulation.
We have Air Time and Flight Time and it basically mean,
Flight Time is from start-up to shut-down and Air Time is from skids-up to skids-down.
Maintenance, inspections etc is calculated with Air-Time.
JD
We have Air Time and Flight Time and it basically mean,
Flight Time is from start-up to shut-down and Air Time is from skids-up to skids-down.
Maintenance, inspections etc is calculated with Air-Time.
JD
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Bristow on their Alouette III's used to split the normal 316 time from the higher 316B time which seemed a bit odd. Same aircraft, engine, gearbox's, drive lines but if you did not log all the time as 316B time the Overhaul and TBO Times were much higher.
The collective in the AS350 has a propensity to pop up.
Now, in order to get it into governor range you must turn the twist grip into FLT.(alternatively lose electricity, so the FCU emergency-mode spools up to FLT) Pulling the collective as on a Robinson, will not do the same, only slow the RRPM and cone the blades.
So, for this accident to have happened, the collective friction can't have been set at all and the collective lock cannot been in use. (can have jumped off the lock, IF incorrectly adjusted) Further, I would think the collective spring have been adjusted for dual-controlls. Combine this with probably uneven ground, and no cyclic friction the bird might get ''air borne enough'' to roll over, even at GND idle.
The machine had the Appareo Vision 1000 installed, so finding the cause for this to happen should be a relatively easy task for the NTSB.
As for things being prohibited in the UK, yeah well, what IS allowed over there???
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the collective friction can't have been set at all and the collective lock cannot been in use.
Nubian,
I agree with your reasons for a collective in an Astar to pop up.However, what I can't get around in my head is that for any professionally trained AS350 pilot, who has flown the type for a while,done basic training and check rides,the locking of the collective and adding friction is almost reflex. I can't believe this poor soul,did not do that. As you say only time ( and Appareo 1000) will tell.
To top it off, if the rigging and the lock were indeed not correct, then it was his time. There is bad luck and then there is SOL!
Alt 3.
Nubian,
I agree with your reasons for a collective in an Astar to pop up.However, what I can't get around in my head is that for any professionally trained AS350 pilot, who has flown the type for a while,done basic training and check rides,the locking of the collective and adding friction is almost reflex. I can't believe this poor soul,did not do that. As you say only time ( and Appareo 1000) will tell.
To top it off, if the rigging and the lock were indeed not correct, then it was his time. There is bad luck and then there is SOL!
Alt 3.
In the US, the ONLY aircraft that I know of that uses engine running time for the MX logs is the Robinson R-22. All others are fitted with some form of collective switch or "weight on skids/wheels" switch which start the MX Hobbs meter on lift off. The Schweizer 300CB did not originally come with an MX Hobbs meter and was normally fitted upon delivery.
This was the reason for the legal interpretation on logging of flight time with the FAA when the R-44 came out, because students were adding time to the meter reading before putting it in their log book.
This was the reason for the legal interpretation on logging of flight time with the FAA when the R-44 came out, because students were adding time to the meter reading before putting it in their log book.
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Yup.... and l believe we can only log PIC flight time as leaving the ground until we land. (FAA) whereas in a plank it is as soon as the engine is running.
How that works is a question that has always made me smile at the Gov. bureaucrats. Surely a pilot is in charge in both when the engine runs...........
How that works is a question that has always made me smile at the Gov. bureaucrats. Surely a pilot is in charge in both when the engine runs...........
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Planks here used to be chocks away till chocks in place, log book and M/R as per the tacho which doesn't really start turning until the ERPM hit a certain level as beginning of T/O, maybe 1700 RPM.
The whole deal was open to interpretation in R/W, hours building pepes, logged starter button to idle cut off, when hours becomes an embarrassment it was a bit after T/O to somewhere before touchdown. Most of us considered flat pitch a non event, but I guess the manufacturer factors in a bit there but with nil pitch changes and considerably less centrifical force at idle RRPM how much really?
Can't figure out at all why Frank hasn't standardised with the rest in the manner as Gordy says. It would certainly help stop the non recording probs.
cheers tet
The whole deal was open to interpretation in R/W, hours building pepes, logged starter button to idle cut off, when hours becomes an embarrassment it was a bit after T/O to somewhere before touchdown. Most of us considered flat pitch a non event, but I guess the manufacturer factors in a bit there but with nil pitch changes and considerably less centrifical force at idle RRPM how much really?
Can't figure out at all why Frank hasn't standardised with the rest in the manner as Gordy says. It would certainly help stop the non recording probs.
cheers tet
malc4d
Being "pilot in command" is different to logging "pilot in command" time...
Surely a pilot is in charge in both when the engine runs...........
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if you take my helicopter away for a week, u are the PIC for that entire time. i don't care if its tied down on an airfield, if something happens to it you still have to answer to me as to what happened.
I'm sure Gordy, or one of the pilots, was responsible for the helicopter on the ship the whole time that he was at sea, if it got a bit of hangar rash, there is only one person that has to explain...
Therefore being in charge of, or responsible for, the helicopter is no determination as to PIC time.
In NZ, our CAA definition for Helicopter pilot flight time is skids up to skids down as well, so we do the same as other guys, and write down every T/O and Landing in the dairy and do a count up at the end of the day.
I'm sure Gordy, or one of the pilots, was responsible for the helicopter on the ship the whole time that he was at sea, if it got a bit of hangar rash, there is only one person that has to explain...
Therefore being in charge of, or responsible for, the helicopter is no determination as to PIC time.
In NZ, our CAA definition for Helicopter pilot flight time is skids up to skids down as well, so we do the same as other guys, and write down every T/O and Landing in the dairy and do a count up at the end of the day.
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This thread has become something about the technicalities of logging time in pilot log books compared to manufacturers recomendations: ridiculous!
TC is beyond learning , he has retired with a 'clean slate' (i presume), doesn't make him 'right' tho.
Respect for the fallen: total, not all they were cracked up to be ? possibly; but "cometh the hour cometh the man", total respect!
Freedom and national philosophies: America; founded on freedom, judgement of the individual is permissable, nay prized. Europe (England); spawned these values of freedom, the foundations, upon which America sits; now believes in the 'nanny state' in which laws 'protect you' are there for your own good, because the 'state' (apparently) knows better! (Do they?). Russia; Great experts, academically brilliant, determined exactly how an operation should be performed, dictated it and the citizens had to 'obey' - FAILED. UK/Europe now becoming like that, ironic in the extreme, denigrating to 'our' fallen who fought for freedom, now we are to be shackled by the 'state' by those who apparently know better: ridiculous!
The freedom of this man to do what he saw fit is more valuable than the enslavement 'we' have to endure as 'we' head for a totalitarian dictatorship.
I do hope that we can preserve the freedom of good men to make judgements and to 'self determine' - without it innovation is lost and the development and inginuity that drove mankind forward is abandonned.
There will be downsides with freedom, as there are in any complex sytem, but the upsides are greater.
I am aware that someone might go back to my flying information from 1973 and find what I did (which was fun at the time), measured by todays standards, thoroughly Politically Incorrect and send me to jail ! But at least I experienced the freedom at the time to do what I thought was appropriate. Now the freedom has gone, I wasn't doing anything wrong, they just TOOK my freedom to do it anyway.
Freedoms fought for:
EASA get F@*£$D
Remember the fallen:
They shall grow not old
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
TC is beyond learning , he has retired with a 'clean slate' (i presume), doesn't make him 'right' tho.
Respect for the fallen: total, not all they were cracked up to be ? possibly; but "cometh the hour cometh the man", total respect!
Freedom and national philosophies: America; founded on freedom, judgement of the individual is permissable, nay prized. Europe (England); spawned these values of freedom, the foundations, upon which America sits; now believes in the 'nanny state' in which laws 'protect you' are there for your own good, because the 'state' (apparently) knows better! (Do they?). Russia; Great experts, academically brilliant, determined exactly how an operation should be performed, dictated it and the citizens had to 'obey' - FAILED. UK/Europe now becoming like that, ironic in the extreme, denigrating to 'our' fallen who fought for freedom, now we are to be shackled by the 'state' by those who apparently know better: ridiculous!
The freedom of this man to do what he saw fit is more valuable than the enslavement 'we' have to endure as 'we' head for a totalitarian dictatorship.
I do hope that we can preserve the freedom of good men to make judgements and to 'self determine' - without it innovation is lost and the development and inginuity that drove mankind forward is abandonned.
There will be downsides with freedom, as there are in any complex sytem, but the upsides are greater.
I am aware that someone might go back to my flying information from 1973 and find what I did (which was fun at the time), measured by todays standards, thoroughly Politically Incorrect and send me to jail ! But at least I experienced the freedom at the time to do what I thought was appropriate. Now the freedom has gone, I wasn't doing anything wrong, they just TOOK my freedom to do it anyway.
Freedoms fought for:
EASA get F@*£$D
Remember the fallen:
They shall grow not old
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
t I can't get around in my head is that for any professionally trained AS350 pilot, who has flown the type for a while,done basic training and check rides,the locking of the collective and adding friction is almost reflex. I can't believe this poor soul,did not do that.
Is this a more likely cause than not correctly setting the collective?
Mickjoebill
Originally Posted by [email protected]
It would be interesting to know if all manufacturers use the same criteria. Anyone have any information?
Certainly on our aircraft we log rotors running as flight time because our engineering empire tells us to - perhaps it is just a military thing.
Certainly on our aircraft we log rotors running as flight time because our engineering empire tells us to - perhaps it is just a military thing.
Welcome to the "other" world of helicopters, where the manufacturer's criteria dictates maintenance time as skids (wheels) off/on in nearly all models. The only type I've flown that requires otherwise are Frank's products. Sikorsky, Bell, Eurocopter, even Westland with the Wessex 60; all seem to have a Maintenance Manual call that follows those parameters.