Grand Canyon Accident: Pilot killed in AS350 rollover

[AnFI]

MJB - sounds like a strong contender in the speculation game. Someone on this forum would know if the pilot sits on the left in this operator's 'A-Stars'?

[peely]

In NZ, our CAA definition for Helicopter pilot flight time is skids up to skids down as well, so we do the same as other guys, and write down every T/O and Landing in the dairy and do a count up at the end of the day.

SuperF, where is this definition in our rules as I have often had this debate but can't find the wording in CAR Part 1?

[SuperF]

peely, i've had the conversation quite often as well, just looked at the definitions and it doesn't say skids off to skids down, but i know that "somewhere" CAA have defined it as such for helicopters.

now you have got me thinking, I'll search it out for you.

I do know that if you get Audited that your Pilot log book better match up "exactly" with your A/C logbook, and maybe thats where it comes from...

[mickjoebill]

AnFI

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 468
MJB - sounds like a strong contender in the speculation game. Someone on this forum would know if the pilot sits on the left in this operator's 'A-Stars'?

Not speculation if Im asking a question
I flew with the operator twice last year in As350b, once with pilot on left the other with pilot on right.
No word yet if the aircraft in question was left or right hand drive.

Mickjoebill

[peely]

Yes SuperF one or two audits so I appreciate where you are coming from. I always ask them to show me the exact wording but each audit we get a different CAA Rep and therefore a different answer - never seen it in black and white other than the Part 1 definition which is open to interpretation.

[SilsoeSid]

While looking for something else, unrelated;

http://www.heli-lausanne.ch/directiv....2418-S-00.pdf

SAFETY INFORMATION NOTICE
SUBJECT: GENERAL
Flight Safety of Helicopters - Issue of EHEST leaflet

AIRCRAFT CONCERNED
EC120 B
AS350 B, BA, BB, B1, B2, B3, D L1
etc

Improving global flight safety is the top priority for EUROCOPTER. On this account, EUROCOPTER is fully involved in the work of IHST (International Helicopter Safety Team) who aims at reducing the helicopter accident rate worldwide by 80% by the year 2016. The European branch of the IHST, called EHEST (European Helicopter Safety Team), has released the following leaflet, dealing with safety and more particularly with airmanship.
As the analyses of accidents of all types of helicopters (including the EUROCOPTER ones) performed by the different teams of IHST (USA, Europe, Brazil, Canada, Australia, etc.) have demonstrated that the accident scenarios are very similar worldwide, the topics addressed in this leaflet are suited to helping all helicopter pilots to fly safely.

and right at the very end ...

Remember, the flight isn’t over until the engine(s) are shutdown and all checks completed and the rotors have stopped.

Just incase anyone missed this particular worldwide Safety Information Leaflet.

[aclark79]

Can anyone tell me what a "control hold" is in an A-Star?

How does one give a control hold?

Why would adjusting any volume or selector switches be bad during a control hold?

[Gordy]

A "control Hold" is where a qualified ground person, (loader, ramper, mechanic), sits or stands next to the flight controls while the aircraft is running and holds down the collective while the pilot leaves the aircraft for another authorized function. This can be written into Ops Specs, (FAA).

Adjusting stuff is not their job.

[aclark79]

So you wouldn't be able to do a control hold with just the pilot present?

[Gordy]

Not in this particular definition no. Nothing says you cannot leave the aircraft though---there is no such rule.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Gordy, you might as well try to teach a Cat to yodel as try to convince your Brethren of that!

[Gordy]

You're not wrong there Bob.....

[aclark79]

The question then becomes who tells the pilots there that they can leave the aircraft? The company ops manual says you may not leave it when running unless performing a control hold or pilot swap, yet we hear from pilots there that they do leave the aircraft and haven't been getting into trouble.

I'm just trying to understand the why of it all.

[Gordy]

I'm just trying to understand the why of it all.

Each Ops manual is different. If you manual prohibits the practice then do not do it.....if it does then no problem.

The FAA allows it, and will write it into Ops Specs if asked, and assuming you have the relevant risk mitigation's in place... (part 135).

Operating Part 91---no rule prohibits it, and there is an AC that give guidance, therefore tis up to you as Pilot In Command to interpret the rules and regulations that you are given, (FAR part 91/135/Ops SPecs etc..), and then to use your judgement and authority granted you by FAR 91.3, (FAA), and determine for yourself what you can argue in a court of law, or worse case in front of grieving relatives....

I defer to the words of SASLess, when given a choice, save in the following order:

Ass....Tin....Ticket.....

Choice is yours dude.....Welcome to the world of being a professional pilot...

[RVDT]

Gordy,

And just to be sure - the RFM (as approved) would overrule all of 91, 135, Ops Spec etc.

It is part of Type Certificate. If the RFM prohibits then the only way around it is an STC and RFM Supplement.

[[email protected]]

and then to use your judgement and authority granted you by FAR 91.3, (FAA), and determine for yourself what you can argue in a court of law, or worse case in front of grieving relatives....

or just operate the aircraft in a manner that means you won't ever need to argue in a court of law or in front of grieving relatives - ie don't take unnecessary risks where there is no absolute NEED to.

[chopjock]

crab

ie don't take unnecessary risks where there is no absolute NEED to.

That sounds a bit like saying don't fly for pleasure or convenience then.

[Vertical Freedom]

Below 15knots wind, machine parked on proven stable ground, at ground idle, collective locked, hydraulics off, push to test button pushed in; it's not going anywhere if it does???? Something was not done from the above list

[Gordy]

And just to be sure - the RFM (as approved) would overrule all of 91, 135, Ops Spec etc.

It is part of Type Certificate. If the RFM prohibits then the only way around it is an STC and RFM Supplement..

Agreed...if that is how the TCDS reads and/or the limitations section in the manual. I never flew a B3E but I have a lot of time in the AS350 BA and B2---neither of those have any limitation prohibiting the pilot from leaving the aircraft running.

or just operate the aircraft in a manner that means you won't ever need to argue in a court of law or in front of grieving relatives - ie don't take unnecessary risks where there is no absolute NEED to.

Agree to a point---the law is constantly changing. Like chopjock states....one could argue there is never a need to fly a helicopter.

[Shawn Coyle]

Or something else happened - has anyone considered a hydraulics hardover???
It's happened with the hydraulics off - stick motored to full deflection and stayed there for 30 second (report given to me by the pilot involved...)