CPL-H +IR+ATPL Exams
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From: UK
CPL-H +IR+ATPL Exams
In Nov 2004 I completed my JAA ATPL-H theory examinations and qualified as a CPL-H in June 2005{No IR}. To date I have been a VFR pilot but would like to aim for a career in the North Sea{Min Req- CPL-H +IR+ATPL exams}.
Firstly, I need to pass the 4 exams below so I can qualify for my IR training.
CAP 804-Section 4-Part L Appendices: 4.2 states the following:
4.2 An applicant for an IR(H) having passed the relevant theoretical examinations for an
ATPL(H) VFR is required to pass the following examination subjects:
– Air Law
– Flight Planning and Flight Monitoring
– Radio Navigation
– IFR Communications
However, after contacting the UK CAA to verify my course of action I was quoted Section 4 Part L 3.6.
3.6 An applicant for an ATPL(H) with an IR(H), having passed the relevant theoretical
examinations for a CPL(H) is credited towards the theoretical knowledge requirements
in the following subjects:
– Principles of Flight (Helicopter)
– VFR Communications
I have passed the 13 ATPL-H exams rather than the CPL-H exams?. Does the CAA response mean that if I want to pursue a North Sea career I will need to resit all of the ATPL-H theory except P of F and VFR Comms?.
Any feedback is much appreciated. Thanks in advance
TTW
Firstly, I need to pass the 4 exams below so I can qualify for my IR training.
CAP 804-Section 4-Part L Appendices: 4.2 states the following:
4.2 An applicant for an IR(H) having passed the relevant theoretical examinations for an
ATPL(H) VFR is required to pass the following examination subjects:
– Air Law
– Flight Planning and Flight Monitoring
– Radio Navigation
– IFR Communications
However, after contacting the UK CAA to verify my course of action I was quoted Section 4 Part L 3.6.
3.6 An applicant for an ATPL(H) with an IR(H), having passed the relevant theoretical
examinations for a CPL(H) is credited towards the theoretical knowledge requirements
in the following subjects:
– Principles of Flight (Helicopter)
– VFR Communications
I have passed the 13 ATPL-H exams rather than the CPL-H exams?. Does the CAA response mean that if I want to pursue a North Sea career I will need to resit all of the ATPL-H theory except P of F and VFR Comms?.
Any feedback is much appreciated. Thanks in advance
TTW
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
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From: UK
Paco is probably the best person to ask.
Essentially, your ATPL exam credits have now expired (it being 9 years ago, without an IR). Under the old JAR system, the number of exams that you would've had to retake would have depended upon the JAR Amendment that was currently in force when you first say your exams. I suspect that you might have got away with just retaking the IR exams.
However, under EASA, I think that has all changed. In order to get ATPL credits (which, basically, there's little point flying on the NS without), you will have to resit most of the ATPL exams again. Your only consolation is that they are much easier the second time around. (As long as you have kept all of your old notes!)
Essentially, your ATPL exam credits have now expired (it being 9 years ago, without an IR). Under the old JAR system, the number of exams that you would've had to retake would have depended upon the JAR Amendment that was currently in force when you first say your exams. I suspect that you might have got away with just retaking the IR exams.
However, under EASA, I think that has all changed. In order to get ATPL credits (which, basically, there's little point flying on the NS without), you will have to resit most of the ATPL exams again. Your only consolation is that they are much easier the second time around. (As long as you have kept all of your old notes!)
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From: Europe
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
That's actually not coreect - here is how we see it:
After the introduction of the new reduced CPL(H) theory course, the combination no longer equates to ATPL(H) theory. To gain the ATPL(H) with IR if you have a post-Amendment 3 JAA/EASA CPL(H), you must take 12 exams out of the 14 required - you will be exempt POF(H) and VFR Comms. If you just want the ATPL(H), you are exempt air law as well.
However, it is our opinion that, if you have a CPL(H) issued under JAR FCL Amendment 3, that is the equivalent of the ATPL(H)(VFR) in terms of theoretical knowledge - paragraph 2.050(b)(10) refers. This credit was carried over into Part FCL. In addition, Article 4(1) of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 refers to JAR compliant licences being deemed to be Part FCL licences. The legal definition of "JAR Compliant" licence is in Article 2, which refers to licences, ratings, certificates, authorisations and other qualifications issued or recognised by a State, reflecting "JAR and procedures". We interpret this to include ATPL(H) TK credit.
Phil
After the introduction of the new reduced CPL(H) theory course, the combination no longer equates to ATPL(H) theory. To gain the ATPL(H) with IR if you have a post-Amendment 3 JAA/EASA CPL(H), you must take 12 exams out of the 14 required - you will be exempt POF(H) and VFR Comms. If you just want the ATPL(H), you are exempt air law as well.
However, it is our opinion that, if you have a CPL(H) issued under JAR FCL Amendment 3, that is the equivalent of the ATPL(H)(VFR) in terms of theoretical knowledge - paragraph 2.050(b)(10) refers. This credit was carried over into Part FCL. In addition, Article 4(1) of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 refers to JAR compliant licences being deemed to be Part FCL licences. The legal definition of "JAR Compliant" licence is in Article 2, which refers to licences, ratings, certificates, authorisations and other qualifications issued or recognised by a State, reflecting "JAR and procedures". We interpret this to include ATPL(H) TK credit.
Phil
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: UK
Bravo 73- Thanks for the feedback......I hope you are wrong.
Martin- Yes I did research that thread before contacting the UK CAA, that gave me the information to submit to the CAA to verify my course of action re exams.
Paco- Thank you for the detailed explanation. What's my next move please?. Contact the CAA and quote your explanation so that I can have it verified?.
I do not want to gain and IR-H to be then informed I have no ATPL-H exam credits.
Regards.
TTW
Martin- Yes I did research that thread before contacting the UK CAA, that gave me the information to submit to the CAA to verify my course of action re exams.
Paco- Thank you for the detailed explanation. What's my next move please?. Contact the CAA and quote your explanation so that I can have it verified?.
I do not want to gain and IR-H to be then informed I have no ATPL-H exam credits.
Regards.
TTW
Last edited by TimTooWindy; 14th January 2014 at 20:38. Reason: spelling
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From: near atlantic
You have to know if your course was done under the amendment 3. I don't know how is in UK but in my country that information is provided by your school.
I think Bravo 73 is wrong too...I think that ATPL (H) VFR don't expire.
Best regards.
I think Bravo 73 is wrong too...I think that ATPL (H) VFR don't expire.
Best regards.
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Exams lasted for 7 years in those days <fx: swings lamp 
>
But - you have a CPL issued, which, based on the length of time looks to be an amendment 3 licence, which is now an ATPL(H)(VFR). Your next step would certainly be to contact the CAA quoting the rules above. You need their answer in writing to guard against the very circumstance you mention.
I believe you need to speak to Barry Mooney.
Phil
>But - you have a CPL issued, which, based on the length of time looks to be an amendment 3 licence, which is now an ATPL(H)(VFR). Your next step would certainly be to contact the CAA quoting the rules above. You need their answer in writing to guard against the very circumstance you mention.
I believe you need to speak to Barry Mooney.
Phil
Thread Starter
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From: UK
Phil
Many thanks again. I will reply to the CAA's last correspondence and detail the information you have kindly supplied and wait on a reply after "10 working days".
Regards.
TTW
Ps- Using the FCLWEB address and for the Att Barry Mooney.....will that be enough or use another address for this chap?.
Many thanks again. I will reply to the CAA's last correspondence and detail the information you have kindly supplied and wait on a reply after "10 working days".
Regards.
TTW
Ps- Using the FCLWEB address and for the Att Barry Mooney.....will that be enough or use another address for this chap?.
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From: Europe
But - you have a CPL issued, which, based on the length of time looks to be an amendment 3 licence, which is now an ATPL(H)(VFR).
However, if you took the ATPL(H) exams and made sure to have had a valid type rating at least once every 7 years, doesn't that always give you at least the ATPL(H) VFR credits?
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From: Europe
Yes, it does. If he has a post-amendment 3 CPL(H) he has to take 11 exams. This is because the new CPL(H) has a lower academic standard
Or are you trying to say that ATPL(H) theory with lapsed ir could be worth much less than CPL(H) theory that was taken at or before amendment 3? Sounds strange.. I believe that I read somewhere that ATPL(H) with lapsed ir equals ATPL(H) VFR theory if a valid type rating has been held at least every 7 years.
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From: Europe
This has been discussed before. I don't think that TTW has to worry about under which amendment he took his exams as he took the ATPL(H) exams. Have a read through this.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/514...nning-out.html
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/514...nning-out.html
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
If he took the Amendment 3 exams for the ATPL(H) without doing the IR, type rating or multi crew or didn't have the hours, he gets issued with a CPL(H). It is not an ATPL(H) with lapsed IR. It is only an ATPL(H) VFR because the Amendment 3 CPL(H) has been granted equivalency under the rules stated above.
phil
phil
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From: Doha, Qatar
Hi
Interesting read, I'm in the same position though not going to do my EASA in the near future as quite happy in the Gulf...however here is my position:
JAA CPL(H) issued under JAR-FCL in 2010 - at the time, I did 14 ATPL JAA Exams.
4 years down the line, I haven't done the IR(H)....Hence exam credits expired. JAA CPL(H) will expire in 2015 (not converted it to EASA).
If I want to get my EASA ATPL down the road...what will it take, i.e which exams??
Also, I have Qatari ATPL and intended to transfer this to EASA ATPL under LASORS G3.5 and previously JAR-FCL 2.280. I.e ICAO ATPL to EASA ATPL..all requirements other than the exams have been met with my current flight experience.
Thanks whoever can advise
Interesting read, I'm in the same position though not going to do my EASA in the near future as quite happy in the Gulf...however here is my position:
JAA CPL(H) issued under JAR-FCL in 2010 - at the time, I did 14 ATPL JAA Exams.
4 years down the line, I haven't done the IR(H)....Hence exam credits expired. JAA CPL(H) will expire in 2015 (not converted it to EASA).
If I want to get my EASA ATPL down the road...what will it take, i.e which exams??
Also, I have Qatari ATPL and intended to transfer this to EASA ATPL under LASORS G3.5 and previously JAR-FCL 2.280. I.e ICAO ATPL to EASA ATPL..all requirements other than the exams have been met with my current flight experience.
Thanks whoever can advise
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,331
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From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
If it is an amendment 3 licence you should just be able to refresh it with 4 exams for the IR. If not, 11 exams 
In doing that you should be able to convert the JAA one to an EASA one in one swift stroke (of course, money will be involved).
The Qatari licence will only really give you the ability to self-certify for the 14 exams - but you would be very unwise to do that given the state of the question bank.
LASORS is not valid any more.
phil
In doing that you should be able to convert the JAA one to an EASA one in one swift stroke (of course, money will be involved).
The Qatari licence will only really give you the ability to self-certify for the 14 exams - but you would be very unwise to do that given the state of the question bank.
LASORS is not valid any more.
phil
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From: UK
Paco- Thanks.Although not doing an LPC every year due to overseas commitments, I never went more than 3 years between keeping my type rating current in the UK, well within the 7 years max.
Martin- Thanks for the recent link. During my thread searches prior to my first posting, I never encountered that particular one which certainly answers all of my questions.
Regards.
TTW
Martin- Thanks for the recent link. During my thread searches prior to my first posting, I never encountered that particular one which certainly answers all of my questions.
Regards.
TTW
