UK IR exams running out

[mln]

Hi

Anyone know what to do if your ATPL theory is running out.
36 month after the last exam and not done IR yet.

Some says 4-5 exams and some say all ATPL exams again?
-IR comms
-Radionavigation
-Airlaw
-Flight planning
??

Have tryied EASA regulations and send mail to the UK CAA, no answer yet.

I have UK CPL(H) with ATPL IFR exams and they are running out soon.

It was a stupid mistake to let that happen..
Thanks in advanced

[paco]

4 exams. Law/ATC, Radio Nav, Flight Planning and IFR Comms.

Phil

[mln]

Thanks for answer.

And how about if I do these exams, do I have my ATPL theory again or is it just a CPL with an IR, when i get my IR done??

Dont hope I have to do all ATP again then

[FYR]

CPL + IR theory exams passed = ATPL theory exam passed

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by FYR

CPL + IR theory exams passed = ATPL theory exam passed

Still?

I thought that arrangement had ended after one of the JAA amendments (6, was it?)

Or is it back under EASA?

[paco]

Only if your original exams were under amendment 3

Phil

[jymil]

The ATPL theory practically never expires - unless you quit flying helicopters for more than 7 years. See Part FCL.025:

(c) Validity period

(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.
If you don't manage to get an initial instrument rating within 36 months of passing the ATPL/IR theory, then you have to do the IR theory again. Similarly, if you let your IR rating expire for more than 7 years, you have to do the IR theory again as well.

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by jymil

The ATPL theory practically never expires - unless you quit flying helicopters for more than 7 years. See Part FCL.025:

That's duff gen, I'm afraid. It depends upon which amendment of the JARs that you passed your exams under.

[paco]

Correct. The old system was 7 years only, assuming you got your IR within 3 years.

phil

[120torque]

Where is the reference for your comments?

B73/Paco - You have dismissed jymil's post, but do not reference where you get your info from. Part FCL & Cap804 tie up with what jymil has posted without any further information/amc's on what regs the original exams were taken under.
Do either of you have any reference to backup your claims that this is not true for ATPL theory done before Part FCL came along ?

[Bravo73]

Over to you, Phil/paco. This is definitely one of your areas of expertise.

[paco]

The old exams only lasted for 7 years IF you got the IR within 3 years. It's still the same really, except they've extended the exam expiry until after the IR (or type rating for the ATPL VFR) expiry. If you don't get your IR within 3 years under current rules, it looks as if you still lose them.

If you have a CPL(H), you are exempt POF and VFR comms for the full ATP so you would only need to take 12 exams, not 14.

Phil

[jymil]

Well, the old JAR rules were defined in FCL 2.495. And they practically remained the same in EASA Part FCL. From JAR FCL2 Amdt 3:

JAR–FCL 2.495 Acceptance period
(a) A pass in the theoretical knowledge examinations given in accordance with JAR–FCL 2.490 will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(H) or IR(H) during the 36 months from the date of [ ] gaining a Pass [ ] in [all] the required examination [papers].

(b) Provided that an IR(H) is obtained in accordance with (a) above, a pass in the ATPL(H) [theoretical] knowledge examination will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR(H) entered in the CPL(H) for the issuance of an ATPL(H).

(c) A pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examination will remain valid for a
period of 7 years from the last validity date of a type rating entered in a F/E licence.

So if you passed the ATPL/IR theory and did obtain an IR(H) (-> para b),then the ATPL/IR theory expires 7 years after your IR rating expiry date. If you did not obtain an IR(H) (->para c), then your IR theory expires after 36 months (-> para a) and your ATPL (VFR, that is) theory credits expire 7 years after your type rating expiry date.

Since the original scenario was without IR(H), I still maintain that the ATPL theory practically doesn't expire as long as you have a type rating.

[Plume_Tray]

The ATPL theory practically never expires - unless you quit flying helicopters for more than 7 years. See Part FCL.025:

(c) Validity period

(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.

Re the type rating, does an R22 count? Seriously, I may have missed it but it doesn't define what helicopter's type rating has to be entered on the licence to qualify for the validity period. If I am wrong, I apologise.

[Aucky]

I agree with Jymil. I completed my ATPL exams in 2005 (whatever amendment that makes them), and have been told in writing by the CAA that they remain valid for ATPL(H) issue indefinitely, so long as a type rating has been maintained on my CPL(H). This would be an ATPL(H) VFR if the IR(H) was not completed, either within 36 months of passing the initial exams, or having re-sat the IR exams. It is possible to then 'upgrade' the ATPL(H) VFR to an ATPL(H) IR by simply 'adding-on' an instrument rating.

The CAA said "It must be understood that for Helicopters, the ATPL and the IR are no longer conjoined as in the past. It is possible to hold an ATPL(H) VFR and add the IR at a later point if required."

The CAA also said "In reference to your email regarding the validity periods for ATPL(H) and IR(H) theoretical knowledge examinations, firstly and in clarification JAR-FCL 2 ceased in the UK on 17th September 2012 and has been superseded by the EASA Aircrew Regulation (EU Reg 1178/2011) which is now law. The requirements of JAR remain mostly unchanged but there are some minor differences."

Re the type rating, does an R22 count? Seriously, I may have missed it but it doesn't define what helicopter's type rating has to be entered on the licence to qualify for the validity period. If I am wrong, I apologise.

Again from the CAA - " If the type rating (any type) remains valid on the licence, in essence the ATPL theory credit remain valid indefinitely."

[paco]

If they are interpreting the type rating as any type rating, that's fine - that point wasn't really clear before. I understood it to mean the type of type rating that an ATPL requires, such as something big and hairy

phil

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

EASA Regs 1178 and Cap804

As far as I can see Phil is correct (Post 2)

EASA Regs 1178 Appendix 1 Crediting of Theoretical Knowledge 4.2 on page L311/74

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...01:0193:EN:PDF

For UK licence holders CAP804 Part L Section 4 para 4.2

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804Jan2013.pdf

[jymil]

Right, the 4 exams are bascially the IR theory minus credited subjects.

Full IR theory for PPLs are 7 exams:
— Air Law,
— Aircraft General Knowledge — Instrumentation,
— Flight Performance and Monitoring,
— Human Performance,
— IFR Communications.
— Meteorology,
— Radio Navigation,

CPLs get credited for Meteorology and Radio Nav, therefore only 5 exams:
— Air Law,
— Aircraft General Knowledge — Instrumentation,
— Flight Performance and Monitoring,
— Human Performance,
— IFR Communications.

ATPLs get also credited for instrumentation, therefore the 4 remaining exams are:
— Air Law,
— Flight Performance and Monitoring,
— Human Performance,
— IFR Communications.