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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

Old 16th Nov 2013, 06:25
  #2221 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: U.K.
Posts: 1,065
DB, you are very right but sometimes it seems it is a lost battle. We are our worst enemy...

I.i. & t.c. yes. You are also right, but don't say ther is nothing to be done...

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Old 16th Nov 2013, 10:36
  #2222 (permalink)  
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DB: Thank you for your kind words.
I am trying very hard NOT to put emotion into this subject matter. My intention was to sort the wheat from the chaff. 111 pages of "just another accident" (which is what it is) seems an awful lot of froth to me. My emphasis is pointed at those who wish to wrap this in something it is not, that is all.
I most certainly have not, nor wish not to offend the crew that night, for we are all human and we all make mistakes. Like many before them - what they did was NOT intentional - sh*t happens. QED.
If my message is "off key" then I apologise, I will endeavour to be more humane in my delivery but the content of what I am stating - I stand by, wholeheartedly.
P3 - your sneyd PM was not welcome, keep your vitriol to yourself in future.

Let's please try and keep emotion out of this, can we?

ASER: What to do? Goodness, where does one start. Possibly one place might be to review SOP's, training and CRM? Human beings won't change over night, thus "human factors" will pretty much remain the same for centuries to come I suspect. We are definitely the "single point of failure" when it comes to aviation.
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 11:25
  #2223 (permalink)  
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TC "we all make mistakes" ...... gosh, and I thought you were perfect .....
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 11:36
  #2224 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
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Read back over your past dozen posts or so and you will see evidence that you have devoted scant effort in using a professional, polite, and appropriate tone in your posts.

Perhaps you might be able to do so in the future......as it is the right thing to do for any number of reasons.

Most important is your credibility which at this point suffers greatly due to the manner in which you have conducted yourself here.

Additionally, I would like to know just what your Bona Fides are that put you into the position to be the Judge of what others post...and decide for the rest of us what is Fluff, Froth, and other terms you use to describe others.

I thought about sending you a PM suggesting you mend your ways but decided against it as I felt it would probably do no good.

You understand perfectly well that any discussion of Private Messages is a Mortal Sin....and I would not be surprised to see Senior Pilot address that with you.....I certainly hope he does as it is warranted.

Simply put TC.....you come across as an officious, arrogant, obnoxious Prick and add less to the discussion they you detract with your repulsive manner.

In Jet Blast I use a technique I call "The Peanut Gallery" that allows me not to have to even see a post made by those who I promote to that not so illustrious group.

I have used that exactly once here at Rotorheads....but have decided it is appropriate in your case.

Congratulations.....you are now rear row, end seat in the Peanut Gallery.
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 16:46
  #2225 (permalink)  
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So what became of the 'shields down' approach, SAS? Is the opinion - based, one would imagine on some experience - of TC worth less than that of someone who once operated in the North Sea but no longer?
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 16:51
  #2226 (permalink)  
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..based on recent performance, yes definitely!
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 17:33
  #2227 (permalink)  
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"Shields Down" does not connote unprofessional insulting posts will be accepted , tolerated or appreciated.

TC has crossed the line and got called out by many of us.....for the Tone and Spirit of his posts. No one has questioned his Professional background and experience, just his attitude and demeanor.

I did ask him just what authority he has to pass judgement on other's background, experience, training, and education that would allow him to call their posts "Fluff", "Froth" and similar names.

That is not questioning his background, etc. But it certainly challenges him to explain why he thought it proper to make the posts he has that are so objectionable.

Remember it was not me who called him a [email protected]!

If I decide his Tone destroys his credibility in my eyes...that is my business.

I made that decision and took my own private action to relieve me of seeing his posts.
SASless is offline  
Old 16th Nov 2013, 20:29
  #2228 (permalink)  
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Pilot Error = the end...

...I don't think so. At least I hope not, I hope that's not the end of our interest in this puzzling event. Whatever we think of TC's assertions it may in the end turn out to be - Pilot Error = the end of the story, which would make him right and he can wear any smugness he feels appropriate when and if that time comes. But I personally hope that we dig and dig, look and analyse until we have chewed over the accident in painful detail.

It has been pointed out by me and others that we do not operate in a vacuum. The processes we used are not made up on the hoof so we need to understand where what happened fits into those processes and if they were found to have contributed to the accident then we must block that hole in the Swiss cheese.

While we are at it we can look at the subject of automation in general and see if we have the design, use and training for automation 'right'.

I hope that will be one positive outcome from a tragic event.

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Old 16th Nov 2013, 20:38
  #2229 (permalink)  
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SASless, I respect that you have your opinion, and have exercised it accordingly. I will always remember the first time I turned and met the expectant gaze of those I had responsibility-for, and the enormous burden and expectation they placed upon my shoulders.
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 21:28
  #2230 (permalink)  
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It is a very long walk from the Ramp of a Chinook to the front seats....when it is filled with folks.....I know what you are talking about. I will have to admit I never really gave that much thought really....as I always felt if I got back to the Bar in the Evening.....they would as well.....which very much was my express goal and intent.....getting everyone home safe.

That thought in mind.....that is what is so confusing about this latest crash.

I am quite sure the Crew had that very mindset....as it follows they would just from the fact that is the way we all think or we would not get into the cockpit. At least my experience with Non-Muslims confirms that. We place our immediate faith in ourselves and our partner in the cockpit and not in the Almighty.

Until the AAIB issues that final report....having exhausted every line of inquiry....we have to be a bit careful about deciding what caused this tragedy.

We all have our opinions....but without being aware of all the facts, evidence, inspection results, interviews of the crew....we are just guessing.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 02:50
  #2231 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SASless
We all have our opinions....
Indeed we do, and some may choose to share their opinions in a language others might find uncomfortable. The curse of the connected-world, you might call it.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 07:27
  #2232 (permalink)  
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If a pilot uses an inappropriate technique (not using IAS for example) for the situation, he has made an error of judgement or possibly a cognitive error - that appears to be what happened at the beginning of the approach and should not result in a fatal accident.

But, when the ramifications of that judgemental or cognitive error become apparent (aircraft deviating from flightpath), the real pilot error is not flying the aircraft first and foremost.

Failing to take the required corrective action in a worsening situation until it is far too late isn't a procedural, legislative or technical failure - it is pilot error, no matter how much of a nice chap he might be.

Sorry, but despite TCs failings as a 'pink and fluffy, keep everyone happy bunny'
I think he has called it correctly.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2013, 08:15
  #2233 (permalink)  
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I have mentioned previously my concern at the apparent lack of procedure in the effective monitoring (and inter-crew communication) of primary flight information and which, on the surface, seems incongruous with the duty of professional piloting.

We should remind ourselves however that this tragedy possesses one feature which most others do not - a living crew.

If this crew now wish to serve the wider aviation community then their honest testimony about the events which transpired that evening should go a long way in dismissing much of the speculation and which testimony will hopefully result in the illumination of some specific failure in their cockpit procedure from which everyone may learn.

Rational thought assumes that some distraction must have occupied both pilots for sufficient time to accommodate the attrition of airspeed to the point where it became critical but, until the crew's testimony is made public, we are left guessing - and which absence of information is naturally frustrating.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 08:17
  #2234 (permalink)  
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Clearly the pilot(s) made a mistake. Big time. But the question is, why did they do that? In the bad old days it would have been "sack the pilots -we're OK now, the problem has gone away".

In these slightly more enlightened times, the reasons behind the error are looked at in the hope of finding out something that might help to prevent a recurrence - after all, it seems unlikely that the pilots did it deliberately or were in general incompetent.

Those who say "pilot error. End of." are incompetent to hold any role in flight safety, even if they may hold some (self) important elevated position in the military. Let's hope that when they join the civilian world, it is in their deserved position as a junior copilot, since a lot of attitude adjustment will be required.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 08:46
  #2235 (permalink)  
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It doesn't matter whether helicopters are being flown by the military or civilians. They both make the same sort of noise if they hit something.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 09:53
  #2236 (permalink)  
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They both make the same sort of noise if they hit something
just that some of their pilots make a very different noise before or after...
and some of the military noise here sounds simply unprofessional for me as human errors can be easily corrected and avoided once understood.
If pilots have a problem with their own personality they maybe don't like to look at the human factor, scared to see their very own incompetence?

ps: their incompetence as 'humans', not necessary 'pilots'

Last edited by xlsky; 17th Nov 2013 at 10:42.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 10:35
  #2237 (permalink)  
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I'm not sure anybody is saying 'pilot error, end of', those days in the military ended with the Mull of Kintyre Chinook incident thankfully. The flight safety culture within the military has changed drastically over the last 20 years and is every bit as 'enlightened' as the civilian world. Only those who have been on both sides of the fence are fully qualified to comment.
It doesn't matter whether you call it pilot error and then look for the causes or look for the causes and then call it pilot error, it's the same beast. Nobody is accusing a professional flight crew of being wilfully negligent, it's just that some of the language used by a small minority on this forum is slightly more on the blunt side. It seems there are a number of sensitive souls who are easily offended.
Nice to see yet another good thread slowly descending into military v civilian handbag waving. There are some big chips on shoulders out there!
llamaman is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2013, 11:16
  #2238 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Not sure if it is good practice to assume the final cause and then look for the evidence.
Human error is a very wide field, no doubt it is the main contributor, but it can be everything from misapprehension to medical issues or factors from a workplace environment.
The crew are victims as well; they deserve some respect just as for them being humans. their live and that of their families are deeply affected too.

Last edited by xlsky; 17th Nov 2013 at 11:32.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 11:24
  #2239 (permalink)  
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Llamaman, well said, I presume it is comments like this
Those who say "pilot error. End of." are incompetent to hold any role in flight safety, even if they may hold some (self) important elevated position in the military.
you are referring to.

HC, get off your high horse, we have had a 'just culture' in military flight safety for many years. Your comments just make you look petty and insecure. A safety culture that won't recognise that people can actually be at fault (because they made a mistake) but constantly seeks to make excuses for that fault, isn't making anything safer at all, just denying the obvious (and often uncomfortable) truth.

No-one is saying these guys should be sacked, they may need some retraining and probably some lengthy therapy to get over what happened but having an accident shouldn't make anyone unemployable. God knows, it used to be said that the only way to get promoted in the military was to crash an aircraft!
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 12:31
  #2240 (permalink)  
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Crab - 27 accidents all with the same common theme!! Failure of the "human" to manage the flight path. There are military, military in civil role and of course full blown civvies all making these mistakes. No one appears exempt from these insidious mistakes.

The singular problem with categorising them as "Pilot Error" is that we fail to identify, assess and correct the environmental issues that lead to these errors.

One incident, where an S76 hit the sea then took off again was put down to the handling pilot having a tough session in the gym!!

Forget pilot error. That is just the bit at the end that all of us seem susceptible given the specific circumstances. If we are to make a serious effort to stop these events we need a more discerning approach to the problem.

CAA know tis and so do most of us at the pointy end of flight safety.

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