Land the Damn Helicopter!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Age: 78
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Land the Damn Helicopter!
HeliHub has today published a message by Matt Zuccaro, HAI President, in which he airs his opinion about helicopter safety and, in particular, preventable accidents:
I support this attitude, completely.
Do you suppose the BHA, CAA, helicopter operators and others would be willing to take steps to encourage an attitude which is more tolerant/forgiving of pilots who make precautionary landings?
Do you agree that making a precautionary landing is better than pushing-on in difficult circumstances?
HAI President Message ? Land the Damn Helicopter! | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
With the above in mind and assuming an acceptable landing site is available, why don’t pilots exercise one of the most unique and valuable capabilities of vertical flight — namely, land the damn helicopter! In a high percentage of crashes, this simple act would break the chain of events and prevent the accident.
I once spoke to a pilot who had survived an accident and asked why he hadn’t used his option to make a precautionary landing. He indicated he had not given it direct consideration and had focused instead on destination and mission completion. He admitted, though, that in the past he had worried about the scrutiny he would incur for making a precautionary landing. This didn’t surprise me. In my early days of flying, I, too, pondered the same issues at times, although luckily I don’t any more.
Pilots normally associate precautionary landings with the police showing up, their company incurring logistical and legal costs, upset passengers refusing to fly with them again, the FAA wanting an explanation, the press asking questions, and peers expressing opinions on their abilities.
Yes, these are all possibilities, but think about the reality of the available options. Option one: focus on the situation and its safety concerns, make the precautionary landing, prevent the accident, and have confidence that once you explain your decision, all those you were concerned about will support your actions. Option two: don’t make the precautionary landing and instead kill everyone on the aircraft and maybe some on the ground. Call me crazy, but this seems like a no-brainer.
Obviously, your primary goal should be to not get into this situation in the first place. However, the last time I checked, none of us are perfect. Accordingly, when such landings occur, the industry and authorities should recognize the event as being part of a healthy, positive safety culture. Bottom line: when appropriate, “land and live.”
I once spoke to a pilot who had survived an accident and asked why he hadn’t used his option to make a precautionary landing. He indicated he had not given it direct consideration and had focused instead on destination and mission completion. He admitted, though, that in the past he had worried about the scrutiny he would incur for making a precautionary landing. This didn’t surprise me. In my early days of flying, I, too, pondered the same issues at times, although luckily I don’t any more.
Pilots normally associate precautionary landings with the police showing up, their company incurring logistical and legal costs, upset passengers refusing to fly with them again, the FAA wanting an explanation, the press asking questions, and peers expressing opinions on their abilities.
Yes, these are all possibilities, but think about the reality of the available options. Option one: focus on the situation and its safety concerns, make the precautionary landing, prevent the accident, and have confidence that once you explain your decision, all those you were concerned about will support your actions. Option two: don’t make the precautionary landing and instead kill everyone on the aircraft and maybe some on the ground. Call me crazy, but this seems like a no-brainer.
Obviously, your primary goal should be to not get into this situation in the first place. However, the last time I checked, none of us are perfect. Accordingly, when such landings occur, the industry and authorities should recognize the event as being part of a healthy, positive safety culture. Bottom line: when appropriate, “land and live.”
Do you suppose the BHA, CAA, helicopter operators and others would be willing to take steps to encourage an attitude which is more tolerant/forgiving of pilots who make precautionary landings?
Do you agree that making a precautionary landing is better than pushing-on in difficult circumstances?
HAI President Message ? Land the Damn Helicopter! | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
I do seem to recall reading a safety leaflet from the CAA encouraging pilots to do exactly that - basically pointing out it's better to land in a field than push on and crash.
I'll see if I can find it.
I'll see if I can find it.
The CAA have certainly tried to do this, and by their involvement in the Small Helicopter Safety Group so have the BHA.
The CAA published AIC Pink 146/2012 at the end of last year, looking at precautionary landings in deteriorating weather. It was circulated to all the members of the SHSG by its author prior to publication and several of us did comment on it, which resulted in some minor tweaks.
I agree a precautionary landing is sometimes the best option rather than pushing on, more education is needed to convince pilots they wont necessarily get the book thrown at them for doing so.
The CAA published AIC Pink 146/2012 at the end of last year, looking at precautionary landings in deteriorating weather. It was circulated to all the members of the SHSG by its author prior to publication and several of us did comment on it, which resulted in some minor tweaks.
I agree a precautionary landing is sometimes the best option rather than pushing on, more education is needed to convince pilots they wont necessarily get the book thrown at them for doing so.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Age: 78
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Based on the initial two responses - can one assume that this is more of an issue to do with individual pilots and their perceived need to push on?
Can operators take a more active role in supporting pilots who elect to land rather than push on?
I am encouraged to hear of the statements by the CAA/BHA - a small glimmer of hope perhaps (in terms of attitude).
Can operators take a more active role in supporting pilots who elect to land rather than push on?
I am encouraged to hear of the statements by the CAA/BHA - a small glimmer of hope perhaps (in terms of attitude).
Yeah but...there's also the flip side which is guys who put down where they don't have permission to visit nearby mates claiming that they 'had a light come on'.
Amazing how these defects suddenly rectify themselves....
Amazing how these defects suddenly rectify themselves....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Age: 78
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
206 jock, this is a valid point.
Is it really a problem though - does it happen often?
Pilots abusing precautionary landings should certainly be penalised.
Is it really a problem though - does it happen often?
Pilots abusing precautionary landings should certainly be penalised.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The whole question of landowners permission for landing has been debated at length in this forum, and in the UK at least it would seem that no offence is committed if you just do it ( safety considerations of course being observed).
Cue Flying Lawyer who will no doubt refer us to his post on the subject.
Cue Flying Lawyer who will no doubt refer us to his post on the subject.
How can you get into trouble if you obey the approved flight manuals instructions. In most cases a RED light means land as soon as possible or failure which requires immediate action.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Age: 78
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I have understood Zuccaro's comments correctly, this is not so much about land owner permissions or setting down in the event of an emergency but addresses those occasions where continued flight is at the discretion of the pilot.
Given Zuccaro's comments at the beginning of his statement (in the linked full text version) where he cites technical/mechanical failures being in the minority [in relation to accidents] I would say that much of his advocacy to "land" relates to flying in conditions of poor visibility.
Given Zuccaro's comments at the beginning of his statement (in the linked full text version) where he cites technical/mechanical failures being in the minority [in relation to accidents] I would say that much of his advocacy to "land" relates to flying in conditions of poor visibility.
Frustration in extremis!
As you know he is involved in this difficult to achieve plan to reduce helicopter accidents.... and it is simply not working out too well.
You could take it as a tirade against those [US] pilots who constantly put their head on the block by flying when everyone in their right mind would put down in a field or simply never get in the cockpit in the first place. It is not all US pilots of course - there are others who fly regardless - but that area is closer to home for him.
He writes articles to the industry regularly and I would assess that this example is his first where there are signs of sheer frustration - or perhaps even anger.
As you know he is involved in this difficult to achieve plan to reduce helicopter accidents.... and it is simply not working out too well.
You could take it as a tirade against those [US] pilots who constantly put their head on the block by flying when everyone in their right mind would put down in a field or simply never get in the cockpit in the first place. It is not all US pilots of course - there are others who fly regardless - but that area is closer to home for him.
He writes articles to the industry regularly and I would assess that this example is his first where there are signs of sheer frustration - or perhaps even anger.
How can you get into trouble if you obey the approved flight manuals instructions.
Worrying about Land Owner's Permission is sheer stupidity.
When you realize the weather is deteriorating.....or the aircraft is acting up in a dangerous manner.....or if the situation is beginning to exceed your capabilities....personal limitations.....and parking the birdie is the exact right way to stay alive and unhurt.....PARK THE DAMN THING!
If you are Alive, Un-hurt, and the Aircraft undamaged......who gives a stuff what the CAA/FAA, other Pilots, your Pax, or your Boss thinks......compared to NOT Landing and becoming yet another dreary statistic that shows you killing yourself for the same old worn out reasons.
Get a grip folks.....sometimes....it just makes good sense to find a place to park the helicopter, find a Pub, have a Pint....and admit you are not the Sky God you think you are!
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: South of 60
Age: 60
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As the old saying goes, "It's better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be flying and wishing you were on the ground."
or
"A superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid getting into situations requiring the use of his superior skill."
Sayings aside, we are all flying helicopters and if there is one thing helicopters do very, very well, it is being able to land quickly and almost anywhere.
I for one could/would care less what anyone might have to say if I choose to set my ship down, for any reason. Something tells me my passengers wouldn't mind either.
or
"A superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid getting into situations requiring the use of his superior skill."
Sayings aside, we are all flying helicopters and if there is one thing helicopters do very, very well, it is being able to land quickly and almost anywhere.
I for one could/would care less what anyone might have to say if I choose to set my ship down, for any reason. Something tells me my passengers wouldn't mind either.
Last edited by Joker's Wild; 3rd Aug 2013 at 02:01.
I am with SASless on this one. If in doubt, there is no doubt, just land it.
I think I have made 5 or 6 weather-related precautionary landings up to now, as a PPL. Only one of those resulted in the Gardai being called and they couldn't have cared less. I think a helicopter-related call was something out of the ordinary for them and with nothing but a parked helicopter to deal with, they were happy.
The most memorable precautionary landing I made occurred in some field near Athenry. I landed and shut-down with the weather closing in. I hadn't spotted the farmer's tractor until I was just going into the field. I got out and apologised for landing in his field and explained why I landed. He was delighted. He got on the phone to his wife and five minutes later his wife and kids arrived with tea and fruit cake and I waited out the weather in their car. If you have to land off-airport, do it in Ireland. No-one seems to care.
I did get slagged-off for regularly making precautionary landings but it seems ridiculous not to use this option when faced with bad weather en-route. I can't see what the police, IAA, land-owners or anyone else can do to you that is worse than death. There is very little worth worrying about that they can even do legally. If, as a commercial pilot, the heli owner and passengers aren't happy with your decision-making, if they search hard enough, they probably will find a pilot that will push on through and will kill them!
500 Fan.
I think I have made 5 or 6 weather-related precautionary landings up to now, as a PPL. Only one of those resulted in the Gardai being called and they couldn't have cared less. I think a helicopter-related call was something out of the ordinary for them and with nothing but a parked helicopter to deal with, they were happy.
The most memorable precautionary landing I made occurred in some field near Athenry. I landed and shut-down with the weather closing in. I hadn't spotted the farmer's tractor until I was just going into the field. I got out and apologised for landing in his field and explained why I landed. He was delighted. He got on the phone to his wife and five minutes later his wife and kids arrived with tea and fruit cake and I waited out the weather in their car. If you have to land off-airport, do it in Ireland. No-one seems to care.
I did get slagged-off for regularly making precautionary landings but it seems ridiculous not to use this option when faced with bad weather en-route. I can't see what the police, IAA, land-owners or anyone else can do to you that is worse than death. There is very little worth worrying about that they can even do legally. If, as a commercial pilot, the heli owner and passengers aren't happy with your decision-making, if they search hard enough, they probably will find a pilot that will push on through and will kill them!
500 Fan.
Aye Gordy.....that was how I lived my life herding Helicopters about the World.....and I am now just a dottering old geezer enjoying retirement. Along the way i met some really lovely people in some out of the way places....took a couple of Pickup Truck rides home, found some really nice Pubs with warm fires on some very foggy, wet, nasty days, used up one helicopter taking care of priority number one, and only had an extended index finger waving by the Authority (who left pencil in pocket) on one occasion and never had a violation filed away in my otherwise pristine but dog earred flying License. As I recall verbal chastisements were free! That incident with the kind Fed was about almost landing....only got within a few feet of the surface where he was fishing on a lake. How was I to know?
If you find yourself doing this landing out thing on an all too frequent basis....you need to brush up on your preflight planning standards. It should be a rare event....but one that is done without a second thought. As one mulls through all of the options on the Decision Tree.....it should be the one that is down at the bottom....but still an Option.
When you run out of Options....that is when bad things happen.
A smart Fox always has a bolt hole to use when needed.....and uses it when the Hounds start getting too close for comfort.
If you find yourself doing this landing out thing on an all too frequent basis....you need to brush up on your preflight planning standards. It should be a rare event....but one that is done without a second thought. As one mulls through all of the options on the Decision Tree.....it should be the one that is down at the bottom....but still an Option.
When you run out of Options....that is when bad things happen.
A smart Fox always has a bolt hole to use when needed.....and uses it when the Hounds start getting too close for comfort.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,578
Received 435 Likes
on
229 Posts
The big problem that ought to be addressed first is not taking option three (which ought to be option one).
Namely, not taking off in the first place.
If you aren't instrument rated and flying an IFR capable, stabilised / autopilot equipped helicopter, it is highly dangerous to consider operating in weather conditions that might eventually become IMC.
I used to be required to fly totally unstabilised (floppy stick) helicopters at night on public transport missions, including police work where many jobs required a hover at altitude, not easy at the best of times. The UK's CAA eventually legislated against it after some high profile fatal accidents, including one occurring with a police helicopter flown by an ex-military trained pilot (who encountered very poor weather immediately after departure and became disorientated resulting in loss of control). The CAA's decision caused a lot of upset in the industry at the time, but in retrospect it was possibly the boldest and best thing they did for RW safety in recent years.
The industry and regulators in some supposedly advanced parts of the world haven't yet gone the same way and therein lies the problem. If the industry can't self regulate safety for commercial reasons, the regulator must level the playing field for all.
Namely, not taking off in the first place.
If you aren't instrument rated and flying an IFR capable, stabilised / autopilot equipped helicopter, it is highly dangerous to consider operating in weather conditions that might eventually become IMC.
I used to be required to fly totally unstabilised (floppy stick) helicopters at night on public transport missions, including police work where many jobs required a hover at altitude, not easy at the best of times. The UK's CAA eventually legislated against it after some high profile fatal accidents, including one occurring with a police helicopter flown by an ex-military trained pilot (who encountered very poor weather immediately after departure and became disorientated resulting in loss of control). The CAA's decision caused a lot of upset in the industry at the time, but in retrospect it was possibly the boldest and best thing they did for RW safety in recent years.
The industry and regulators in some supposedly advanced parts of the world haven't yet gone the same way and therein lies the problem. If the industry can't self regulate safety for commercial reasons, the regulator must level the playing field for all.
it is highly dangerous to consider operating in weather conditions that might eventually become IMC.
As in the USA....just because the FAA and your Operator will let you fly....doesn't mean you should or have to do so.
What we are talking about is what do you do...when you realize (or should realize) a Pub visit is in order!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,578
Received 435 Likes
on
229 Posts
Exactly. You and I are still able to discuss the subject which means we are either both extremely lucky and/or made some difficult but fundamentally correct decisions in this respect.
I learned to say no sometimes because although a cautious decision might sometimes mean I make myself very unpopular for a while in my life, I prefer it to the thought of being forever unpopular and dead.
I learned to say no sometimes because although a cautious decision might sometimes mean I make myself very unpopular for a while in my life, I prefer it to the thought of being forever unpopular and dead.
I wish the Ladies would say "Yes" as readily as do Helicopter Pilots.
Think of the money I could have saved on Drink and Dinners!
Think of the money I could have saved on Drink and Dinners!
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somerset
Age: 81
Posts: 635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAS
You have your moments and this is one of them. Absobleedinlootley correct old son!! Who gives a Sh1t what people think if you are able to ring the wife and tell her you may be a bit late for supper - rather than a visit from the Padre................been there - done that!!
You have your moments and this is one of them. Absobleedinlootley correct old son!! Who gives a Sh1t what people think if you are able to ring the wife and tell her you may be a bit late for supper - rather than a visit from the Padre................been there - done that!!
When you realize the weather is deteriorating.....or the aircraft is acting up in a dangerous manner.....or if the situation is beginning to exceed your capabilities....personal limitations.....and parking the birdie is the exact right way to stay alive and unhurt.....PARK THE DAMN THING