Ornge helicopter crash
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Mechanical Ruled out........
I'd say there was something quite obvious on that CVR
No mechanical problems in fatal Ornge crash: investigators - Sudbury - CBC News
I'd say there was something quite obvious on that CVR
No mechanical problems in fatal Ornge crash: investigators - Sudbury - CBC News
Last edited by r22captain; 4th Jun 2013 at 23:38.
Climbing Flyer,
This news report shows the two Pilots were new to ORNGE....and one would question the amount of time they had to settle into the system, aircraft, and Base.
Perhaps there is something to what CotB said about their being new to the job.
Paramedic who died told father Ornge helicopters 'well-maintained' - Sudbury - CBC News
This news report shows the two Pilots were new to ORNGE....and one would question the amount of time they had to settle into the system, aircraft, and Base.
Perhaps there is something to what CotB said about their being new to the job.
Paramedic who died told father Ornge helicopters 'well-maintained' - Sudbury - CBC News
Although the equipment list mentions a rad alt - it doesn't mention if there are 2, one for each pilot or if there are bugs with attention-getter lights and/or an audio alarm for low height.
What are the rad alt setting procedures in this operation?
Departing on instruments in those conditions sounds as hazardous as departing from a ship in the dark without NVG - extremely easy to become disorientated in the low-speed instrument environment.
What are the rad alt setting procedures in this operation?
Departing on instruments in those conditions sounds as hazardous as departing from a ship in the dark without NVG - extremely easy to become disorientated in the low-speed instrument environment.
Crab,
If you look at the map or Sat Photo of the town/airport....a departure can be made so there are light references but not for long (contingent to wind direction)....otherwise it is simply a very dark area for many miles to the destination which is a very small settlement too that is a very small bunch of lights in a sea of darkness.
NVG's would greatly improve the Safety of that Operation....as using them is the only way to fly in the dark. The Mark I Eyeball just doesn't compare to NVG's for seeing in the dark. As you well know. There is not enough Carrot Juice in this World to enhance normal vision to compare with NVG's.
Is the CAA/EASA going to allow UK Operators to use NVG's at Night when doing the EMS/Air Ambulance mission?
If you look at the map or Sat Photo of the town/airport....a departure can be made so there are light references but not for long (contingent to wind direction)....otherwise it is simply a very dark area for many miles to the destination which is a very small settlement too that is a very small bunch of lights in a sea of darkness.
NVG's would greatly improve the Safety of that Operation....as using them is the only way to fly in the dark. The Mark I Eyeball just doesn't compare to NVG's for seeing in the dark. As you well know. There is not enough Carrot Juice in this World to enhance normal vision to compare with NVG's.
Is the CAA/EASA going to allow UK Operators to use NVG's at Night when doing the EMS/Air Ambulance mission?
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SAS and CotB, it is possible you guys are correctly reading the reports and CF is correct. I don't know the particulars but this operation was run for decades by Canadian Helicopters, and the captain may have flown with them. Again, I don't know the truth but rather pointing out that neither do most of us here.
Ultimately, it means only a little. Even years of experience in the night VFR/IFR environment does not make anyone immune from a bad day. Time in does not by itself prevent CFIT.
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The measurements on the swath in the trees are ridiculously out of whack. Anyone can use tree height and compare it to the width of the cut. I doubt the trees are 125 meters high. More likely 30-50 feet, maybe less.
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I sometimes ask myself why I keep getting into these discussions on here. I think it is because there is a whole new generation that uses the online world as their coffee table, their kitchen, their corner bar and bartender. We need to weed out the crap for them, as we have no choice.
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When I flew on this operation, better than a decade ago, I was so very fortunate to receive my training at the hands of some incredibly experienced pilots. These men took the time to show me what the 76A could and could not do, how to use every tool the system had in it to get the job done, and how to remember that in the end we were not 'heroes' but rather drivers. Use every tool as long as it was safe and legal.
Sadly, most of those old hands are gone now. Moved on for many reasons but the turmoil at CHL/Ornge hasn't helped.
To borrow from another story, when I arrived on base there were a lot of Zeke's, and because they truly cared about the job we did, they went out of their way to make absolutely certain I would become an old Brad, not a Timothy. Thanks guys.
Ultimately, it means only a little. Even years of experience in the night VFR/IFR environment does not make anyone immune from a bad day. Time in does not by itself prevent CFIT.
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The measurements on the swath in the trees are ridiculously out of whack. Anyone can use tree height and compare it to the width of the cut. I doubt the trees are 125 meters high. More likely 30-50 feet, maybe less.
=====================
I sometimes ask myself why I keep getting into these discussions on here. I think it is because there is a whole new generation that uses the online world as their coffee table, their kitchen, their corner bar and bartender. We need to weed out the crap for them, as we have no choice.
=====================
When I flew on this operation, better than a decade ago, I was so very fortunate to receive my training at the hands of some incredibly experienced pilots. These men took the time to show me what the 76A could and could not do, how to use every tool the system had in it to get the job done, and how to remember that in the end we were not 'heroes' but rather drivers. Use every tool as long as it was safe and legal.
Sadly, most of those old hands are gone now. Moved on for many reasons but the turmoil at CHL/Ornge hasn't helped.
To borrow from another story, when I arrived on base there were a lot of Zeke's, and because they truly cared about the job we did, they went out of their way to make absolutely certain I would become an old Brad, not a Timothy. Thanks guys.
Even years of experience in the night VFR/IFR environment does not make anyone immune from a bad day.
So very true....The Air as is the Sea, is a very unforgiving thing.
I especially like your comment about "being" Drivers.....not Heroes.
Way too many forget that and allow themselves to find trouble that could be avoided if one adhered to the notion they were out there to provide safe and efficient Medical Transportation services and not out there "saving lives".
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I know I should stay out of this but I should bring some comments!
Pilot and apprentice is wright. In the past we were doing our training directly on the aircraft and we were able to see what the aircraft was able to do which was very important on the underpower 76A. We went from the aircraft to the A sim from Flight Safety to their B sim to now the S76 C+
from rotorsim. The training done now on the S76 is crap since it has nothing to do with a S76A
. All new pilots have no clue about single engine performance even it was not the problem in this case.
We lost a lot of pilots due to the Ornge change which could not be worst, so many very experienced guys who have here for 15-20 years left during the last 2 years.
And Pilot and apprentice is also right about all people commenting about something they don't know. It is sometimes very painful to read what some people are saying when they do not have a clue about what we are doing. That' why I am staying away from most comment to avoid to get mad.
We know it is a CFIT, we don't know why and only the CVR will tell us and answer very important question.
Don was working with CHL before part-time and left when Ornge arrived. He came back with us just recently. As I said before, as soon as you leave the runway, it is an instrument flight, it does not matter if the Vis is 1 SM or 10 SM, you don't see anything anyway. GIMY was a phase 2, so you have to fly it manually.
NVG's have been ruled out because of training cost, we 16 aircrafts, 84 pilots to cover Ontario, so it is a big deal on the cost side.
Pilot and apprentice is wright. In the past we were doing our training directly on the aircraft and we were able to see what the aircraft was able to do which was very important on the underpower 76A. We went from the aircraft to the A sim from Flight Safety to their B sim to now the S76 C+
from rotorsim. The training done now on the S76 is crap since it has nothing to do with a S76A. All new pilots have no clue about single engine performance even it was not the problem in this case.We lost a lot of pilots due to the Ornge change which could not be worst, so many very experienced guys who have here for 15-20 years left during the last 2 years.
And Pilot and apprentice is also right about all people commenting about something they don't know. It is sometimes very painful to read what some people are saying when they do not have a clue about what we are doing. That' why I am staying away from most comment to avoid to get mad
.We know it is a CFIT, we don't know why and only the CVR will tell us and answer very important question.
Don was working with CHL before part-time and left when Ornge arrived. He came back with us just recently. As I said before, as soon as you leave the runway, it is an instrument flight, it does not matter if the Vis is 1 SM or 10 SM, you don't see anything anyway. GIMY was a phase 2, so you have to fly it manually.
NVG's have been ruled out because of training cost, we 16 aircrafts, 84 pilots to cover Ontario, so it is a big deal on the cost side.
Thank you for the reasoned input.....and helping describe the situation ORNGE Flight Crews are confronted with in light of Managment decisions about Training and Equipment.
Definitely sorry to hear of the loss of people you knew and worked with....and understand all too well how that feels having lost Friends myself in the past.
Definitely sorry to hear of the loss of people you knew and worked with....and understand all too well how that feels having lost Friends myself in the past.
Awfully short flight for Icing to be such a problem.....anyone got the weather for the time of the crash?
Had the aircraft been setting outside in the freezing drizzle or something?
Had the aircraft been setting outside in the freezing drizzle or something?
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From what Arcal 76 has mentioned in his post, NVG was ruled out due to cost. What management always fails to understand that 'affordable safety' is a nice phrase, but one accident that could (possibly) been have avoided due to (in this case) NVG would have paid for the NVG installation and training for the next 50 years. And lives would have been saved.
My condolences to the families and to ORNG.
My condolences to the families and to ORNG.
Absolutely right sunnywa
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Humans are a tribal species. One consequence of our social bonding is to naturally take a 'them and us' approach to any misfortune.
Suppose (not this time, possibly) that a crash happens that would not have happened with NVG + appropriate training:
I think the best inputs so far have leaned towards the ' drivers not heros' and 'safe and efficient Medical Transportation'. If you take that to heart, then a bus driver crashing because he tried to corner like a Porsche can't blame management for not giving him a Porsche.
Suppose (not this time, possibly) that a crash happens that would not have happened with NVG + appropriate training:
Is it management's fault for not proviing NVG which could have reduced risk?
Or Is it the commander / pilots fault that given the equipment level and training the task should not have been attempted?
In the real world decisions have to be made in the light of cost. It's called management. The decision to launch should be made based on all of the information available at the time of potential launch, including the consequences of decisions made in the light of cost; taking a 'Zeke'. approach. Once launched, it would be a cop-out to blame something (such as lack of NVG) that was known from the outset.I think the best inputs so far have leaned towards the ' drivers not heros' and 'safe and efficient Medical Transportation'. If you take that to heart, then a bus driver crashing because he tried to corner like a Porsche can't blame management for not giving him a Porsche.
Last edited by John R81; 6th Jun 2013 at 06:35. Reason: Sp
Are the folks in the UK paying attention here....they are about to embark on this Night Flying HEMS thing....or at least seem to think they are. Every one of these Tragedies serve up Lessons Learned....the key is for others to learn from them as repeating other's mistakes is not the way to go.
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I forgot this one yesterday.......
We are not heroes Our job is to provide a service, safe and efficient. I am an helicopter pilot doing a specific job. I am not here to kill 4 people to try to save one. It is retarded and unacceptable. This "heroes and saving life stuff" is a recipe for disaster when people decide to push their limits to the extreme and break any possible rule.
We have seen that a lot during the last 10 years.
I have been in EMS for 16 years and I am not a hero. I am tired of this media stuff, they don't understand anything
And to finish: we are only human, we try to excel, to do our best. But human are human, we do mistakes and we do have bad days. I am sure anybody on this website had bad days when they were not very efficient or realize that it could have been a catastrophe in certain circumstances, it does not matter how many thousand hours you have....
We are not heroes
Our job is to provide a service, safe and efficient. I am an helicopter pilot doing a specific job. I am not here to kill 4 people to try to save one. It is retarded and unacceptable. This "heroes and saving life stuff" is a recipe for disaster when people decide to push their limits to the extreme and break any possible rule.We have seen that a lot during the last 10 years.
I have been in EMS for 16 years and I am not a hero. I am tired of this media stuff, they don't understand anything
And to finish: we are only human, we try to excel, to do our best. But human are human, we do mistakes and we do have bad days. I am sure anybody on this website had bad days when they were not very efficient or realize that it could have been a catastrophe in certain circumstances, it does not matter how many thousand hours you have....
Well Said!
SASless: I hesitate to comment that we are slightly different here in the UK for several reasons:
The CAA are very risk averse in the UK [Some might say they suffocate aviation in some areas]. However, I stand corrected but our accident rate in public service aviation is very good compared to 'most' other countries around the world. Excuse the pun - but this is not by accident.....the CAA may have something to do with it.
Secondly, we are a tiny geographical nation. You can't fly far without bumping into serious ambient lighting. The CAA are fully aware of this and tailor the rules accordingly.
Operating under NVG requires the pilot to maintain his/her normal visual references based on ambient lighting in the event the goggles fail. You are NOT allowed to operate goggles where both tubes have a common power source and you cannot go where manual reversion leaves you up a valley with no visual refs.
And as I said earlier - not much of GB has many dark satanic areas left!
That is why the CAA are a little more relaxed over night HEMS. It is coming, as we speak. Required visual references in addition to the lack of corporate pressure to make a buck ambulance chasing - adds atleast two further layers of safety between flying and crashing.
As I said before - you guys who fly long routes (negative ambient lighting) in the US and/or Aussie land - hats off to you guys, can't think of anything more demanding in aviation than trying to stay wings level (IMC)with poorly equipped cabs. I have been there many many times and it makes your skin creep.
The CAA are very risk averse in the UK [Some might say they suffocate aviation in some areas]. However, I stand corrected but our accident rate in public service aviation is very good compared to 'most' other countries around the world. Excuse the pun - but this is not by accident.....the CAA may have something to do with it.
Secondly, we are a tiny geographical nation. You can't fly far without bumping into serious ambient lighting. The CAA are fully aware of this and tailor the rules accordingly.
Operating under NVG requires the pilot to maintain his/her normal visual references based on ambient lighting in the event the goggles fail. You are NOT allowed to operate goggles where both tubes have a common power source and you cannot go where manual reversion leaves you up a valley with no visual refs.
And as I said earlier - not much of GB has many dark satanic areas left!
That is why the CAA are a little more relaxed over night HEMS. It is coming, as we speak. Required visual references in addition to the lack of corporate pressure to make a buck ambulance chasing - adds atleast two further layers of safety between flying and crashing.
As I said before - you guys who fly long routes (negative ambient lighting) in the US and/or Aussie land - hats off to you guys, can't think of anything more demanding in aviation than trying to stay wings level (IMC)with poorly equipped cabs. I have been there many many times and it makes your skin creep.
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 6th Jun 2013 at 14:34.