Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 23rd Dec 2014, 13:22
  #1381 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,450
SarOwl - I know 2 that came from the RAF and became senior trainers with CHC - they aren't there now but I suspect it is their legacy that night wets are completed.

The present incumbents may be ex-RN but perhaps they were educated into the ways of the light-blue

Jim, the fact that both the S92 and AW189 have rear crew stations with moving map/FLIR/TV/radar displays means that they most certainly are involved very heavily in the safety of the aircraft and as such should be licensed and paid appropriately.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 13:52
  #1382 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 119
Civilian SAR Training

Crab,

[QUOTE]I know 2 that came from the RAF and became senior trainers with CHC - they aren't there now but I suspect it is their legacy that night wets are completed.

The present incumbents may be ex-RN but perhaps they were educated into the ways of the light-blue/QUOTE]

We still used to do all those evolutions on the S61 under the Bristow contract before the aforementioned 'light blues' arrived.
SARowl is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 14:37
  #1383 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Essex
Posts: 41
SAR is not BIG HEMS. It is principally about access, often in extraordinary circumstances. In a SAR helo this means that the principal skill set for all crew is airmanship, with the boy scout first aid badge or BSc Med Sci coming second. It may be time for the CAA to get over reorganising and create a bold and practical new approach to this.
Jim as one of the people originally responsible for moving the Medical Skills of Winchmen forward beyond the Boy Scout Big First Aid Badge I could not agree with you more.

It is unfortunate that those that came after me dictated the HCPC Paramedic qualification as a minimum requirement for SAR. The previous 'Paramedic' standard whether on SAR, Oil Rigs or Ambulance Service allowed a tailoring of training to meet the needs of the casualties whilst not taking away the clear requirement for all SAR rearcrew to be first and foremost Aircrew or in EASA speak 'Technical aircrew'.

The HCPC qualification and educational requirement within the UK was driven for one reason only - to ensure better pay rates for Ambulance Staff not, initially, as a way of improving provision or training.

There is still no legal impediment to SAR Winchmen being trained to 'EMT' level with additional skills and access to Drugs granted under medical supervision.

The future UK SAR and any other SAR Contract let by HMG have been hamstrung by the MOD and DfT specialists dictating HCPC registration and creating what will be a future career progression from NHS Paramedic to Winchman and later Winch Op resulting in lower pay rates and the demise of professional 'Technical Aircrew'.
Older and Wiser is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 17:30
  #1384 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
SAR Owl.

That's encouraging to hear but I'm willing to bet that it's down to individuals going beyond the basic currency requirements and in doing so, going the extra mile to create the conditions that will permit that training (eg safety boat for night wets). It is the currency requirement that is important because it has to cater for those that like to achieve the bare minimum. Therefore if that currency requirement doesn't include night wets (and it won't) then there is an enormous deficiency in training that will only show up when a rescue attempt fails or is refused. Message to future fast jet pilots - I'd eject over land at night if I were you.
Vie sans frontieres is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 17:40
  #1385 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGPB/EGPD
Posts: 133
Thumbs up

AgustaWestland's AW189 has achieved EASA certification in the search-and-rescue configuration.

Finmeccanica AgustaWestland has achieved European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) certification for the search-and-rescue variant of the AW189, paving the way for the delivery of aircraft for the U.K. search-and-rescue program.



EASA certifies AgustaWestland AW189 SAR variant | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
shetlander is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 18:22
  #1386 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
Such hard work being a journo at Vertical. That's a straight copy of the AW Press Release.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 18:29
  #1387 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,450
We still used to do all those evolutions on the S61 under the Bristow contract before the aforementioned 'light blues' arrived
So why won't it be done under the new contract if it was a Bristow 'thing'?
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 18:52
  #1388 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Captain Fantastic
SarOwl - I know 2 that came from the RAF and became senior trainers with CHC - they aren't there now but I suspect it is their legacy that night wets are completed.

The present incumbents may be ex-RN but perhaps they were educated into the ways of the light-blue
Of course. How silly of us. If it's fantastic it must have come from the Royal Air Farce

If it's sh1te it must be the RN or HMS Bristow.

Your arrogance never fails to impress
P3 Bellows is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 19:08
  #1389 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Out West
Posts: 273
Don't bite P3. If the Holy Trinity didn't have PPRuNe they might just have a life.
Same again is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 19:35
  #1390 (permalink)  
Tightgit
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The artist formerly known as john du'pruyting
Age: 60
Posts: 750
Message to future fast jet pilots - I'd eject over land at night if I were you.
I'm sure that by the time the contract is fully up and running, they'll both take your advice!
handysnaks is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 19:43
  #1391 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 884
Jimf671...Aahhh.....you need to read HeiiiData for the full truth!

Last edited by heli1; 23rd Dec 2014 at 19:45. Reason: Correction
heli1 is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 20:15
  #1392 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by heli1 View Post
Jimf671...Aahhh.....you need to read HeiiiData for the full truth!

Surely there's not a secondhand 189 for sale already!
jimf671 is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 21:07
  #1393 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 884
Ha ha..News Issue,not the free Classified!
heli1 is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 22:14
  #1394 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,450
Just too easy P3 Happy Christmas
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 23:39
  #1395 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
What happened to the idea of an RN vs RAF bitching thread?

Not enough support?
jimf671 is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2014, 07:34
  #1396 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
It needs to be appreciated that a number of things can conspire against non-military SAR crews that are trying to achieve their wet winching training and wets with a live survivor in a dinghy are much less likely to take place than in the military. The reasons for this include, but are not limited to

1. The inability to live winch when committed. This can be the biggest barrier to a number of forms of winching training. An airspeed of under 15 knots in the hover is unlikely to give torques low enough to permit live winching and depending on the conditions of the day, nearer 20 knots may actually be needed for wet winching

2. A surface vessel has to be sought locally rather than one being contractually required to provide support. This therefore requires a third party to be both agreeable and available

3. Using a survivor may result in that survivor's Flight Time Limitations and European Working Time Directive hours approaching or accumulating to beyond their limit. Their mandatory time off between shifts may be compromised and any survivor coming in whilst off duty may claim an overtime payment. For all these reasons, wets with a live survivor as military SAR may know it is less likely to take place.

4. Safety equipment may not be available. Full time SE Fitters are not employed and therefore rearcrew will be reliant upon the employee whose secondary duty is Safety Equipment having prepared and serviced sufficient wet drill equipment. If they are on leave, this may not be the case.

5. Deploying a survivor in a dinghy from the aircraft is much more hazardous in stronger downwash. The survivor therefore needs to be pre-prepared to deploy from the surface vessel in support.

Night wets as you may know them with a survivor in a dinghy are therefore not an impossibility but there are considerable challenges getting all the pre-requisites in the right place at the right time.
The SAR RC is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2014, 09:07
  #1397 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
Live winch in training also an issue for MRT but bearable.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2014, 11:02
  #1398 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,450
The SAR RC - and all of that was known before the contract was let - so much for 'like for like' service; it goes to show what extra the milSAR and its add-ons brought to the party.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2014, 11:28
  #1399 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Essex
Posts: 41
If it all gets too much the Air Ambulance Services and Police Helicopters can always fit winch's extend their AOC's to CAP999 and take quite a lot of the smaller jobs inland. In fact no need to bother with a winch, just short line the rescue man in.

Maybe some of the more well off MRT's could fund raise for their own local helicopters and therefore provide even faster response times.
SAR provision in the UK will change. Who would have thought 30 years ago that there would be so many Air Ambulances in the UK funded by public donation.

The die has been cast and the new DfT/ HMCG service will, no doubt, provide a suitable service. It will draw on those with previous SAR experience from both the Military and CG Contracts and in less than 5 years everybody will have forgotten that there was Military SAR as other organisations and agencies increasingly provide a service. By then the bitching will be why the CG service is superior and the MRT/RNLI/Police rescue helicopters are not!

By then the Military will decide that it might just need an Expeditionary SAR force but without any experience left it will be left to new blood to re-invent the wheel with new aircraft and new equipment.

As the advocate to the devil - Happy Christmas and may the New Year and subsequent years bring more change to keep us busy on PPRuNe.
Older and Wiser is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2014, 12:46
  #1400 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
A Scottish MRT went to a contractor a few years ago for a proposal for a local MR helo. The price for a very modest service was as much as the entire budget for MR in Scotland. The location also had amongst the worst aeronautical condition in the UK. A really stupid idea.

There was a RUSI conf in April 2012 about this stuff. I was appalled by the English air ambulance situation where most of them seem to prioritise bitching on a scale that puts the RN/RAF stuff on here completely in the shade.

The DfT contract is the only show in town. Quite a lot of things are going well and we will get a good service. What we need now is for some of the details to get sorted so that we can get an excellent service. The flyers at Bristow know what is needed. Hopefully the management are on side. We need the CAA to make a few more small adjustments to the regulatory framework.
jimf671 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.