sAviator

Hi,

Does anyone know, about how are the rotation going to be??

Thanks

Megawart

With regards to the rotation, the Bristow concept is all pretty conventional as far as I can gather, the top bit goes round very rapidly and lift is produced...

satsuma

I can answer one of my own questions. Certification is scheduled for the end of 2013.

What about those problems with the 139 doing SAR though? Lighting and problems over the water at night wasn't it? Have these issues been designed out of the 189?

jimf671

I have never been in a 139. What little I have heard about them has made me suspicious about their SAR capability.That conversations about the 139 in the SAR role tend to be hushed one-to-ones in quiet corners does nothing to instill confidence.

You mention: lighting and some kind of problem with over-water ops at night.

I hear: very limited space, generally poor role eqpt, missing tail rotors and 20+ fatalities.

What I am hearing about the 189 is that it has a basic family resemblance, 139 door(s?), a lot more space, role equipment similar to the S-92, oodles of control power, big-boy engines and transmission, and lots of new bits and bobs.

I am generally happy with the story so far. I am keen to know more though, and particularly about the reported SAR Prototype which one might expect to have done a few hours by now.

I am, however, somewhat amused by part of the Bristow website that mentions capacity for "additional standing persons". Perhaps the extinction of Homo Floresiensis was prematurely reported.

Adroight

Jim, Perhaps you should have a chat with the many other operators throughout the world who have been happily using the AW139 in a SAR role for years to get a better picture of the capability. The UK is not the only place where SAR is flown at night - although to listen to some you'd think it was.

[email protected]

Yes, a helicopter that hovers 8 degrees nose up with a small cabin and poor ground clearance is a perfect SAR helicopter for UK.

satsuma

Hi Adroight,

Where it is used elsewhere, is it used over the sea at night with minimal references and in poor visibility? If so that's important because that's what will be required by the 189 in the UK.

NRDK

Stop knocking the Sea King, its more like 10 nose up. Besides it is nearly a retiree so show some respect to her.

jimf671

I am aware that the UK isn't the whole story. The 2007 contract had its shortcomings and the 139 may suffer because of that as much as anything else. There are a lot of mixed messages and mis-information out there about the S-92 and it may be that the same is true for the 139. However, if there are real problems then I would like to hear the real evidence.

Space is definitely an issue for those who are used to Sea King and S-92. However, people used to 135 and Jetranger will undoubtedly think it has bags of room.


Still uneasy about those tail-rotors though.

thorpey

Dear all, i'm not qualified to say but having just read 'On the wire' by Dave Peel, ex Navy and UK CG winch op, he describes his concerns about the a/c and says the cabin space is smaller than the Whirlwind that he first started SAR work in, seems a backward step to me, even though it is more powerful, two engines etc.

satsuma

Cabin space is an important point. The 189 is advertised as being slightly bigger but does it have the capacity to carry a Mountain Rescue Team with all of its equipment or to rescue a dozen mariners from a liferaft 150 miles offshore? These must be basic requirements for a SAR helicopter operating in the UK, as must the ability to do the same at night. It's not that long ago that a declared SAR asset in the UK was unable to rescue the survivors of a helicopter ditching in the North Sea in poor visibility because of crew and aircraft limitations. So have the previous night overwater concerns about its younger brother, the 139, been sorted out and if not, does the 189 have different design features to overcome those problems?

Thomas coupling

Why are you beating the living daylights out of the type of a/c being used?
It's a done deal, the a/c are well and trully tested around the world and some of the best and biggest helicopter operators buy them in droves.

So PERLEEEEEZE can we move on, get a life and talk about other aspects of the project and forget about the wrong type of a/c being used....Jeeeez.

As if ANYONE is going to listen or do anything now.....

jimf671

Lighten up TC. Few people know much about the 189. Its little sister may be a successful aircraft type but like everything else is not without its shortcomings. Valid questions are being asked.

Personally, I think that the 189 is likely to be very very good. I am expecting excellent mountain performance and cabin space similar to a Pavehawk (but without the need for those monster cabin tanks).

Survivor spec: tick the box. MRT standard load: tick the box. Range and endurance: tick the box. Performance at 4000 feet: tick the box.

La oss gå flyr.

Thomas coupling

Jim,

You've been around this industry a long time and it's obvious you are a very passionate participant - more power to your elbow,
but let's add some fresh air to this draggy thread shall we?

The chopper,s selected are inbound come hell or high water. What is the point of slagging them off or questioning their ability? They won't change.

When will people realise there is more to this process than the right a/c for the job???

People, places, prices: this is what counts and the nearest a/c will do.

The 189 is going to rejuvenate down south and for that matter the British helicopter industry which currently is NIL.[To speak of]. Thousands of jobs guaranteed, major affiliation with an EU partner (Italy) whether we like it or not. You rub my back and I'll rub yours......

The day someone buys the right product for the specific job in hand is the day that company goes to the wall!

The MoD was absolutely crap at Pr (still is) no qualified experts running that department hence a dreadful performance. Watch as the Bristow PR machine spins up over the next few years and turns this 'process' into a massive success story. Of course the government will not shy away from being a part of that methinks.

It will be a success make no bones about it.
Modern equipment, the best helicopter company in the world and some of the best "hand picked" pilots globally. Watch and smile!

jimf671

The Bristow PR machine?

Let me see now. I'm sure I remember them from somewhere.

Oh yes. Scottish Mountain Rescue magazine - Casbag edition 31

Lala Steady

On to people then TC - the present allocation of SAR flights in the UK has the RAF with 6, the MCA with 4 and the RN with 2.

How then does Bristow justify their plan to have each flight split one third RAF, one third MCA and one third RN? How does that keep the level of SAR expertise and knowledge where it is now?

What does that tell you about Bristow remaining a Navy club, especially since some posts are being filled with very recent ex-RN who are being called civilian?

Not a great plan for producing a world-leading and marketable SAR service of the underlying ethic of the crews is 'SAR is a secondary role and anyone can do it'.

Discuss

SeaKingDriver

OK, I'll bite... but treading carefully so as not to descend into a dark blue/light blue slagging match.


"How does that keep the level of SAR expertise and knowledge where it is now?"

I think you will find in all cases, 'SAR expertise and knowledge' is the same regardless of what colour Sea King you fly. Having known many RAF exchange officers through the years who have been thoroughly pleasant chaps this has proven to be true - albeit with a different con/patter! We just choose to do things a little differently and rotate people through different roles. What this means is that the number of SAR qualified personnel is much larger than the number of bods currently on 771/GSF.


"underlying ethic of the crews is 'SAR is a secondary role and anyone can do it'"

While SAR IS a secondary role for any helicopter, this statement in the way it is meant is utter rubbish. All personnel on the RN's SAR units consider themselves SAR aircrew. Long gone are the days of ASW with a bit of winching thrown in. There have however, been many rescues conducted by Lynx, Merlin & various mks of Seaking over the years (and even a few Chinooks!) that have been hugely impressive.


That is all

SKD

Adroight

No of course the UK is the only country in the world that operates overwater, night IFR, SAR - just ask Crab. He is the one with who has extensive world-wide civilian SAR experience in the AW139

TorqueOfTheDevil

If the workforce at SAR flights in 3 years' time is at or near this division of backgrounds, I'll be going on the Trilby diet.

Lala,

I really hope your post was intended in jest (Crab's sidekick eh? Chosen from a cast of thousands no doubt)...if you mean what you say, you are hardly helping those in the light blue world who are really hoping for a Bristow slot.

TOTD

jimf671

Yes TC. I understand. With a shrinking defence force and a tiny air corps, the south will have to wean itself off its state dependency and join the real world.


Two EU partners? Italy and Poland?