SAR Bloke

Ok, seeing as you clearly think I am thick!!

That is the bit that I am asking about. How does that work? How many personnel can the SARF afford to lose without breaching the integrity of the service. At what point are the SARF going to be able to release people?

Edited to add:

Seeing as the timeline for overall transition is quite tight, will this not end up with 'transition' crews at several bases simultaneously? Is that not a long time for a transition crew? What are all these people going to do when the transition is over?

flybeboy

s-92 bristow g-mcgc was at culdrose today and now at chivenor showing off trying to get them signed up

Fareastdriver

That's a good sign. If Bristow beancounters are prepared to pay for the fuel to get a S92 down from Inverness to Cornwall and back they must be interested in military crews.

Thomas coupling

It's not you SARbloke - I udnerstand some don't want to wade thru this massive thread again and again

SARF will release people who fit the Bristow AND SARF matrix for start up times at each of the bases. If there is a conflict, SARF will not release the individual.

The transition crew(s) are already in Bristow. They are a worked up crew designed to cover bases ready for the transition. They have designed it to 'work'. Dates and training come together.
In fact the designated crews for each of the new bases should be ready to go approx 2 months before they are actually required.
Once the transition crew do one base, they move onto the next base etc. On completion of the transition they return to the Bristow fold.

Flybe/Fareast: It's not a recruitment drive. It's is a road show advertising the way ahead - take it or leave it. It is not essential they take any military, I would suggest and they are most certainly NOT turning up cap in hand as those who attended the Valley road show will attest. Bristow are definitely in the driving seat here! I would suggest it is the mil who should be turning up cap in hand.

If you talk to anyone who has done a road show already, they might suggest it was a humbling experience overall

This is going to be one helluva trip:
Job application - hit or miss?
Interview - hit or miss?
Psychometric testing - hit or miss?
Sim check ride - hit or miss?
Civvy medical - hit or miss?
Flying oil rigs for approx 8 months miles from your home base?
Flying a very technically advanced glass cockpit?
Learning all about civvy ops/SOP's?
For some - Obtaining their licenses (inc IR)?
Being a co-pilot on a lower salary to start with?
Not guaranteed the base you chose?
Not guaranteed Captaincy early?
Disembarking to other bases for weeks on end throughout the year?

Very very humbling indeed.............................

The good news:
Flying one of the most sophisticated helicopters out there.
Sponsored IR.
Qualified on M.E., glass cockpit, NVD.
Working for one of the most astute aviation companies in the world.
Earning serious money for the rest of your career.
Job mobility at home and abroad.
Pension rights/LOL/medical.
A job FOR LIFE.

Now who is going cap in hand to whom?

SAR Bloke

I understand that the interest from the ex-Mil pilots might not be that great. Time will tell and it might be a good thing as I the more I hear, the more I believe that there will not actually be that many opportunities for them anyway. Even if they are interested then I can't see that the SARF will be able to release them in useful numbers.

Making life difficult for the ex-Mil crews might seem like a good idea to 'put them in their place' but despite what you might think of them, they do know their stuff and are very experienced at what they do. Do they really need to fly oil and gas for 8 months? That just sounds like being difficult for the sake of it to me. Let's hope that Bristow have a suitable number of civilians with comparable experience to step in on day one if not enough ex Mil pilots are willing, or able to make the move. I for one have already found alternative employment outside of SAR.

So working on the minimum suggested training time of 7 months, with 7 new bases, that is 49 months (i.e. over 4 years). Is it just me or is there a flaw in this plan?

Edited to add:

TC, it shouldn't be about anyone going cap in hand to anyone. Bristow need good SAR crews and some of the ex-Mil crews will need jobs. If everyone could put their differences aside then it should be obvious that recruitment of some of the ex-Mil people will be beneficial to everybody.

NRDK

Sorry old chap if you feel that you are being hard done by, welcome to the real world. It will not be fixed in stone, but that process has been in use for 20+ years. On exceptional occasions people were dropped straight into slots if they had the rating in hand. That is unlikely to be the case, furthermore some ex-mil & civ drivers didn't come up to scratch as expected. Hence a more selective approach and some useful evaluation time?

Bristow does not have a pool of pilots already working that can turn into SAR pilots overnight. They may have a few interested pilots that would take a lot longer than the proposed route for the ex-mil SAR pilot to bash his/her way through. A type rating and a few months hour/experience building is easy. Years of developing a SAR, multi crew experience portfolio is your asset to the company, not 10,000 hours of flying to a rig down to 300' & .75nm @ night minimums. (don't get me wrong, landing at night on a semi sub on the limits of wind/sea conditions can be a challenge and a half!)

Good luck in your new found career.

SAR Bloke

Why should I feel hard done by? It's not like I've failed selection; I have made a choice to go elsewhere. I do have friends who are still stuck in the system though so do maintain a level of interest.

So is the oil and gas time part of the selection process? That's not what I have heard. I was under the impression that once you had a fixed number of hours glass cockpit that you go to the SAR Flight. It didn't read as if it was an assessment tool.

Which is precisely my point. So why use experienced SAR pilots to fly to a rig?

NRDK

The rig flying bit is to quickly amass the hours required by the client, authority, company rules.

The use of selection/'evaluation' has been taken to heart? It was perhaps the wrong use of the words...but that said it is not inconceivable that some pilots may have more adjusting to sound CRM/civ way of operating. Someone of promise may be noted for accelerated command. Naive to assume you wouldn't be measured during that time, after all, it happens throughout your Civie career.

Your lack of understanding or unwillingness to accept that clever people have a plan and have done so for a number of years so far. Shows them exactly why this is in place. If it ain't broke, don't fix it....

SAR Bloke

This is the first time that the whole of UK SAR has transitioned to the civilian sector. If these clever people you talk of are relying solely on previous experience without considering the new environment that they find themselves in then then maybe they aren't so clever (my guess, however, is that they have). You can't assume that what has worked for the last 20 years will work in this case.

In a 'normal' case, I wouldn't be bothered about the requirement to spend a few months hour building to a rig. The problem now is that the transition for all bases occurs so quickly that maybe this a luxury that can't be afforded. It might be that a full programme, including hour building, has been designed that works. My concern would be whether the Military can release pilots at a time that is expected by Bristow.

As it happens, I think that the future Bristow SAR service will be excellent, but if this thread is representative of the attitudes of the military to the civilians and vice versa, I wouldn't want to be in the crewroom at the beginning!!

Fareastdriver

Should there be mass reduncies from the fixed-wing part of the RAF because a particular force has been folded pilots would be looking to civil aviation to continue their flying career. The would expect to be a first officer for several years before getting a command and that would be on a vacancy basis.

Why should helicopter pilots be any different?

NRDK

One third is already there...has been for 2 decades plus only 60% more is required....come to think of it we are nearly HALF WAY there already

It will be tight, true. Also, we will let you off with your attitude to the civilian SAR on this occasion.

Have had a chat with Senior management....

We have decided to give all mil pilots a quick conversion & IR onto a complex glass cockpit aircraft, make them captains, parachute them into a region that they may be unfamiliar with. Tell them get airborne & make the most of the 3 civilian crew they have with its 60 plus years of SAR experience (20+ years is standard at the moment per employee) and get you all to retrain them the RAF way Managed transition complete easy peasy

Bristow have it in control as best as they can when working with the MOD BS, trust me, its not them making life difficult.

Vie sans frontieres

Why so defensive NRDK?

llamaman

As I have said before, Bristow hold all the trump cards. There's a reason they are one of the most successful commercial helicopter operators in the world. Anyone who thinks that MT was conceived with the needs of the individual in the military as a priority is sadly deluded. The process that has been put in place has been done to ensure;

1. Continuity of UK SAR during the transition.
2. To enable Bristow to cherry-pick military crews to satisfy their needs.
3. As a management tool for mil manning to have control over exit dates.

It saddens me that those who want to continue doing what they love doing, but as a civilian, are described as going begging 'cap in hand' to Bristow. For those that do I sincerely hope they are not welcomed with that attitude from many of their new compatriots. I suspect that once the disruption and uncertainty of the next few years subsides that it will all work quite nicely.

NRDK

VSF - Just realistic in life. After living on both sides. BTDT

LOL, tis a rumour network after all, added to by many outwith of the actual SAR community. That part is BS and far from the real world......do you really believe that is what is expected....seriously?????

jimf671

Sorry NRDK, but that is naive fantasy. A year from now, it might reach around 25%.

One base is part-time, only one does mountain, there is no low light requirement and therefore no NVG except as a rear-crew search aid, the comms requirement and therefore fit is inadequate, and the aircraft at two bases are not suitable. No matter what experience and effort the crews bring to this service, they remain held back by the current contract and by DfT/MCA lack of vision.

My hope is that in the future the lid is not going to be held down on a boiling pot of diverse talent. Fortunately, it appears that the current path is ever upwards.

pasptoo

JimF

Ten bases planned, therefore one base = 10% of total manning?

3xMCA bases (SUM, STY, LEE) = 30%
1xMCA base going spare (POR)=10%
1xBHL Transition + Trainers = 10-15%

Total so far = 50-55%

Perhaps my math is wrong but I'd suggest in a year from now 75-80% easily, judging by the numbers of SAR (VERY recent) experience being recruited by Bristow NOW !

That leaves more or less 20-25% within the next 3-4 years to find.

Vie sans frontieres

Your view may be one of realism NRDK but it also reveals a defensiveness which I hope isn't reflected across civilian SAR. In the past you've suggested that RAF pilots will only be considered when all other options have been exhausted

and your recent post

gives the impression that you feel the need to re-emphasise how much experience there is in civilian SAR at the moment and that your nervousness about RAF input continues.

Some might say this shows that your eventual reaction to the arrival of ex-RAF SAR boys and girls is therefore already in place. If that is true and it's reflected across civilian SAR then as SAR Bloke says, what chance is there that the crewroom is going to be a happy place? Just relax and welcome their input when it comes.

jimf671

25% of contract delivery, as of spring 2014, plus some sensible but unproven planning and preparation.

Flounder

Please don't think some of the comments on this forum reflect the attitudes of the current MCA crewroom where civilian, ex-RAF & RN personnel all work very well together.

Naturally this is an unsettling period for all (more so for RAF/RN crews looking to transition out) but I sincerely believe Bristow not only want to recruit the experience currently operating in military SAR but they will need to.

I'm not entirely sure how the 7-9 month transition will work, or how the North Sea plan to gain experience will work with crewing. This is going to be a challenge no doubt but I've been through a few hand-overs to new operators or changes of contract in my career where the naysayers sat at the sidelines waiting for the whole show to collapse only to jump on board and join the celebrations when it somehow got done - usually through the hard work and flexibility of the people involved.

However, I think once the dust has settled there will be a huge sigh of relief from those who wanted to join civilian SAR when they realise that it doesn't really feel any different from what they are doing at the moment (where did most of the SOPs for civilian SAR came from in the first place?). The major difference will be working in a superb new aircraft operating from a bespoke modern facility (apart from Stornoway ).

Bring it on and welcome one and all.

NRDK

My banter with CRAB@ shouldn't be taken so seriously


Crab is playing nice now that his CV in sitting in HR and he would be a fun addition to the crew room plus his experience on Ops

Any team player with an open mind to change is welcome.

Well said Flounder.


The current team is a complete mix.....works very well. Made up of people very much orientated to maintaining the high level of service that has existed for so long at 2/3rds of the UK's SAR bases.

Jimf, I think someone else has pointed out that numbers wise the Civilian side is already a large part and Bristow will obtain the right numbers within a sensible framework.