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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 24th Sep 2015, 19:30
  #2281 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Crab , I can only assume you are fully conversant with the current amendment to the S92A operations manual having the type on your E.A.S.A. A.T.P.L.
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Old 24th Sep 2015, 20:01
  #2282 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
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Jim, I can only use my two tours at Lossie as experience but I can't remember a situation where it would have been quicker to go over the top and rely on an unknown let down at the other end. As for letting down in the Moray Firth, it isn't as straight forward as you may think near the Beauly Firth end. With the correct low level skills (SAR basics) and goggles, a relatively fast transit can be made even in quite poor conditions. I'm not saying that a high level transit will never be used but it still won't be the best way on most occasions even with new technology. Before you ask, I have flown new technology in icing and snow without the pressure of a dying casualty and I know where I would rather be. Of course this relies on getting enough practice at low level and with goggles - Crab has done that one to death! I'm sure they will be fine with all the experience they have in place.
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Old 24th Sep 2015, 20:51
  #2283 (permalink)  
 
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Whether people like it or not, or are willing to admit it, there has already been a subtle shift in ethos of UK SAR Operations by the commercial operators. The military call it mission creep. In the past the priority was to get the casualty to a hospital, usually by utilising one equipped with an HLS. Already, we are seeing Bristow crews more frequently electing to drop the casualty at an airport for onward transfer via ambulance. This is a perfectly acceptable solution where injuries are not time critical and mitigates the issues of single-engine performance in urban HLSs. It may even be a quicker option than a low level grovel in marginal weather where the modern aircraft are equipped for a fast, IFR transit potentially in icing conditions (stand-fast AW189 clearance), assuming there is a slick ambulance transfer. The problem comes when there isn't a convenient airport and the weather or HLS isn't compatible with the best hospital option.

The numbers were expertly crunched to justify the 10-base solution. If senior members of the DfT had seen the map I saw recently which dramatically visualised the rescues carried out round the UK in recent years they would be very nervous about coverage down the east coast. Stats can be very forgiving when trying to justify a solution which saves money. I guarantee the press/public won't be as forgiving if and when said compromise gets exposed.
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Old 24th Sep 2015, 21:36
  #2284 (permalink)  
 
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llamaman - excellent post - the quote 'lies, damn lies and statistics' was never more apposite than when looking at the way the 10 -base solution was 'justified' - sadly, some of that work was done by my own colleagues!

Pitch horn - I don't have to be S-92 qualified to know SAROPS - perhaps 14 years as Sqn trg Off, CFS agent and part-time Stds isn't enough for you.

Jim. the paranoia that exists within MCA and Bristow regarding social media and this contract means that no-one would talk to me unless it was off the record - obviously no-one has done so
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 09:46
  #2285 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pitch horn View Post
Crab , I can only assume you are fully conversant with the current amendment to the S92A operations manual having the type on your E.A.S.A. A.T.P.L.
Pitch horn

Seeing as you probably are, perhaps you could confirm or deny that the icing clearance is based on the absence of large super-cooled droplets. How do you check that this is the case?
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 12:01
  #2286 (permalink)  
 
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VSF

The point I am making is that there are people on this thread pontificating about an aircraft and its limitations ( as dictated in the Ops manual ) that they have absolutely no experience on.

Crab - your cv is small beer compared to many involved in SAR. I'm not just referring to the U.K. but globally.
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 13:01
  #2287 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vie sans frontieres View Post
Pitch horn

Seeing as you probably are, perhaps you could confirm or deny that the icing clearance is based on the absence of large super-cooled droplets. How do you check that this is the case?
Well Same Again must know the answer. Will he tell us?
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 14:26
  #2288 (permalink)  
 
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I could perhaps look it up but don't have the time or the inclination. I am just a pilot. Freezing conditions are freezing conditions and, having been well scared one dark, stormy, winter night, I will stay well clear of the combination whenever possible. Especially if there is no quick and easy exit.

If you have a beef about the policies of UK SAR, MCA and Bristow then take it up with them or, better still, your local MP - not the crews who are trying to do their best.
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 14:58
  #2289 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think anyone is beefing with the crews - just questioning headline statements about capabilities that may be exaggerated or spun to deflect any criticism for not fulfilling the terms of the contract from the start.

Pitch Horn - globally, very certainly but UKSAR, maybe not so small beer - it's irrelevant since the point was that I don't have to be S-92 qualified to understand icing limitations and SAROPs.
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 15:41
  #2290 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Same again View Post
I could perhaps look it up but don't have the time or the inclination.
So you don't know or want to know the limitations of your own aircraft.

You previously mentioned meriting all that money you earnt. Hmmm.
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 17:14
  #2291 (permalink)  
 
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I know all the limitations of the aircraft that I fly. As far as airframe icing limitations are concerned my own limitations would be exceeded well before - and will not be. Just off out to spend some of that money. Bye.
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Old 25th Sep 2015, 18:50
  #2292 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Same again View Post
I know all the limitations of the aircraft that I fly. As far as airframe icing limitations are concerned my own limitations would be exceeded well before - and will not be. Just off out to spend some of that money. Bye.
Well, clearly not all the limitations. However, thank you for proving so many points in just one small post.
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Old 26th Sep 2015, 08:00
  #2293 (permalink)  
 
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This is starting to sound like some Cat checks I have conducted - a question is asked by the examiner, a bold but vague answer is given by the examinee, some probing of understanding is undertaken and then evasion, obfuscation and deception ensues as the examinee tries to cover up the fact he doesn't know the subject.
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Old 26th Sep 2015, 21:04
  #2294 (permalink)  
 
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Well I seem to have passed all my tests Crab. I'm still flying SAR and enjoying it very much thank you. How's life with you?
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Old 26th Sep 2015, 23:20
  #2295 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Same again View Post
Well I seem to have passed all my tests Crab. I'm still flying SAR and enjoying it very much thank you. How's life with you?
Nice to see it all getting personal thanks to the brave screen of anonymity that PPRuNe offers. I'd love to see you guys attempting to have a similar conversation face-to-face in a bar (that's where actual people meet and chat whilst looking each other in the eye). I don't fancy your chances Same Again, even if you are a very wealthy and knowledgeable SAR pilot.
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Old 27th Sep 2015, 19:00
  #2296 (permalink)  
 
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How's life with you?
very good thanks - still flying but without getting dragged out of bed at 2 am for a 3-hour pointless search in shi*e weather

Did my time, enjoyed it and moved on
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Old 28th Sep 2015, 12:40
  #2297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by crab
moved on
If you say so
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Old 28th Sep 2015, 17:17
  #2298 (permalink)  
 
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I meant I had moved on from flying SAR not moved on from caring about it.

I believe that anyone privileged enough to be involved in UKSAR should care deeply about its quality of service and not just treat it like any other job where the paycheck is all that matters.
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Old 28th Sep 2015, 17:22
  #2299 (permalink)  
 
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Did my time, enjoyed it and moved on
To be fair, you didn't have much choice...
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Old 28th Sep 2015, 20:27
  #2300 (permalink)  
 
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Not so - I could have stayed in to the very end which would have coincided with my normal end of military service.

If small-minded individuals want to claim a victory from excluding a very experienced SAR operator and QHI from the new service for voicing an opinion then let them crack on - it doesn't say much for the quality of the individuals concerned.
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