Helipro New Zealand seconds away from causing mid air disaster ....
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Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Hating bells since 1947
Helipro New Zealand seconds away from causing mid air disaster ....
Mid Air Crash avoided by quick thinking Rescue Crew. NZ Police training exercise involving STG. Two helicopters fast roping. While one in position other heli is providing sniper cover . Helipro Pilot briefed to drop STG and depart forward and and then left to come back to provide sniper cover for second heli (Westpac Rescue) drop off. Helipro pilot ignored the well briefed instructions and had rescue helicopter crew not acted a mid air collision would have occurred!!!!
youtube Ref
Last edited by bell hater; 27th November 2012 at 02:28.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Hating bells since 1947
Quick Reaction from Westpac ... not a moment too soon ..
Great reaction by other chopper crew .... what was Helipro Pilot thinking ... or more to the point NOT THINKING !!!! Who blindly backs up and pulls the collective to look good for the camera crew!!!!!! Must have been pulled to the roof !!!!
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Dubai/USA
Helipro near miss
I doubt very much that this was a planned manouvre having flown this sort of insertion u would expect the first Heli to manouvre fwd to allow the second insertion a fast and safe entry. Good old NZ doing things the cheap and nasty by having a local charter company do what anywhere else in the world would be done by the military or Police machines. Helipro Pilot sudden rush of blood to the head it seems and all very lucky to escape....quick reaction by westpac pilot though glad it was not a contact
Joined: Nov 2012
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From: New Zealand
is it just me???
I'm not so sure taking the time (or risk) of retrieving the fast rope is such a good idea. First, the aircraft is on station longer (exposure); the possibility of the rope bag turning into a sail and going straight up into the rotor system; the delay in getting all your assets on the ground as the second helicopter is waiting to insert.
Just drop the rope and have one of the troopers drag it aside so the next insertion of troops doesn't get caught up in it, and recover it upon completion of the mission.
Just drop the rope and have one of the troopers drag it aside so the next insertion of troops doesn't get caught up in it, and recover it upon completion of the mission.
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Out there
Just drop the rope and have one of the troopers drag it aside so the next insertion of troops doesn't get caught up in it, and recover it upon completion of the mission.
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
Cluster f**k!
2 helicopters in close proximity and blind to each other.
Relying on the one crewmen for separation!
Old trick - when in close proximity to each the guy in the blind spot shall keep the other aircraft visible and it is up to him to get out of the way. It works.
Agree on the recovery of the fast rope - it should stay with the team.
The kick it sideways to slow down in a 117? I hope you have plenty of T/R parts.
2 helicopters in close proximity and blind to each other.
Relying on the one crewmen for separation!
Old trick - when in close proximity to each the guy in the blind spot shall keep the other aircraft visible and it is up to him to get out of the way. It works.
Agree on the recovery of the fast rope - it should stay with the team.
The kick it sideways to slow down in a 117? I hope you have plenty of T/R parts.
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: USA
Rescue Hoists are not meant for Fast Roping
Besides the already mentioned concerns, hoists are generally not designed for Fast Roping.
Different shock loading and loads imposed. Not sure what model hoist they're equipped with, but I'm sure the manufacturer would not support this use.
And I've asked.
Results may be minor over time, or catastrophic in an instant.
Different shock loading and loads imposed. Not sure what model hoist they're equipped with, but I'm sure the manufacturer would not support this use.
And I've asked.
Results may be minor over time, or catastrophic in an instant.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 276
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From: uk
That was ugly. And slow.
That whole setup was crap. I was surprised there wasn't a midair, or a rope flicking into the rotor, or had this been real, a shot down heli due to how long they spent hovering over the spot.
Hopefully now the RNZAF has the 109 they can take over this role and do it properly. That said the way the Kiwis have been doing things lately I doubt they would do much better!
That whole setup was crap. I was surprised there wasn't a midair, or a rope flicking into the rotor, or had this been real, a shot down heli due to how long they spent hovering over the spot.
Hopefully now the RNZAF has the 109 they can take over this role and do it properly. That said the way the Kiwis have been doing things lately I doubt they would do much better!
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
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From: Gold Coast, Australia
Besides the already mentioned concerns, hoists are generally not designed for Fast Roping.
Different shock loading and loads imposed. Not sure what model hoist they're equipped with, but I'm sure the manufacturer would not support this use.
And I've asked.
Results may be minor over time, or catastrophic in an instant.
Different shock loading and loads imposed. Not sure what model hoist they're equipped with, but I'm sure the manufacturer would not support this use.
And I've asked.
Results may be minor over time, or catastrophic in an instant.
The rappelling bar then hangs from that longeron. SOP is usually to dump the rope not haul it back in, and fast roping should have an emphasis on 'fast' 
Maybe the Westpac machine would have been better off on the port quarter with the pilot in full sight and able to slide over when the HeliPro machine pulled off with the pilot better positioned to see where he's going? I don't know but I'd expect the pilots were in contact and able to see each other, no doubt we'll hear one way or the other. It looked very much like a strong wind off the ship's head that may have contributed to the strange approach, but considering it was a training exercise one hopes that a few lessons were learnt.
And that someone reads this thread and accepts the constructive criticism as a positive input to future exercises
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Dubai/USA
NZHerald
Terror test stuns voyagers
Thursday Nov 29, 2012
A video of the police anti-terrorist team sliding down ropes on to a Cook Strait ferry in a helicopter training exercise shows why passengers saw the incident as a near-disaster.
The clip shows five members of the elite Special Tactics Group sliding down from a Helipro helicopter, which then lifts back towards the trailing Westpac rescue helicopter.
The rescue helicopter banks to the left before pulling back from the approaching aircraft, piloted by Helipro's Rick Lucas.
Passengers watching can be heard talking about the move, with one calling it "really dodgy". Another says: "He didn't think he was going to come back on him, eh? He had a bit of a surprise coming back at him."
The note posted on YouTube with the video praises the rescue helicopter for "quick thinking" to avoid a crash, saying without it "a mid-air collision would have occurred". At least eight people were on the two aircraft.
Mr Lucas said the move was carefully planned and what was seen as a near-collision was actually a move carried out exactly as intended.
He said video footage of the training exercise was three years old, although was posted online just days ago, and gave a "distorted impression".
"We briefed the whole exercise prior to the event. The briefings are extensive. All pilots and all crews were aware of each other."
Westpac rescue helicopter operations manager Dave Greenberg said the staff had since left. "Everyone took the action they needed to ensure there wasn't a collision."
A police headquarters spokesman said it was understood there was no risk of a crash but "operational repositioning" was required.
He said both aircrews were fully briefed by the lead pilot and were able to see each other at all
Terror test stuns voyagers
Thursday Nov 29, 2012
A video of the police anti-terrorist team sliding down ropes on to a Cook Strait ferry in a helicopter training exercise shows why passengers saw the incident as a near-disaster.
The clip shows five members of the elite Special Tactics Group sliding down from a Helipro helicopter, which then lifts back towards the trailing Westpac rescue helicopter.
The rescue helicopter banks to the left before pulling back from the approaching aircraft, piloted by Helipro's Rick Lucas.
Passengers watching can be heard talking about the move, with one calling it "really dodgy". Another says: "He didn't think he was going to come back on him, eh? He had a bit of a surprise coming back at him."
The note posted on YouTube with the video praises the rescue helicopter for "quick thinking" to avoid a crash, saying without it "a mid-air collision would have occurred". At least eight people were on the two aircraft.
Mr Lucas said the move was carefully planned and what was seen as a near-collision was actually a move carried out exactly as intended.
He said video footage of the training exercise was three years old, although was posted online just days ago, and gave a "distorted impression".
"We briefed the whole exercise prior to the event. The briefings are extensive. All pilots and all crews were aware of each other."
Westpac rescue helicopter operations manager Dave Greenberg said the staff had since left. "Everyone took the action they needed to ensure there wasn't a collision."
A police headquarters spokesman said it was understood there was no risk of a crash but "operational repositioning" was required.
He said both aircrews were fully briefed by the lead pilot and were able to see each other at all
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Dubai/USA
If thats the case then Its a carefully planned f.... Up...... its pretty obvious to any pilot watching....prob better to just put hand up to a mistake rather than lose all credability trying to call this precision flying......RL obvioulsy has not changed
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 927
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From: Germany
Helipro New Zealand seconds away from causing mid air disaster ....
Hi all,
fast roping has its risks and own dynamics.
Dropping the rope isn't liked by ship captains, they fear it gets into the screw.
Second reason not to drop is the attached ring, which needs checking/replacing after dropping.
Stupid to have a sack attached, only a matter of time until it goes into the tail rotor.
They should do without.
Like These
Greetings Flying Bull
fast roping has its risks and own dynamics.
Dropping the rope isn't liked by ship captains, they fear it gets into the screw.
Second reason not to drop is the attached ring, which needs checking/replacing after dropping.
Stupid to have a sack attached, only a matter of time until it goes into the tail rotor.
They should do without.
Like These
Greetings Flying Bull
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 557
Likes: 27
From: At home
fast roping has its risks and own dynamics.
Dropping the rope isn't liked by ship captains, they fear it gets into the screw.
Second reason not to drop is the attached ring, which needs checking/replacing after dropping.
Dropping the rope isn't liked by ship captains, they fear it gets into the screw.
Second reason not to drop is the attached ring, which needs checking/replacing after dropping.
Second, if that bag with rope had flown into the tailrotor, the ships screw would have been the least of the captain's worries!
As for the ring, that has to be checked or replaced..... Come on, what beencounters idea is it to save a few dollars on that, compared to the risk of the crew of the helicopter, people on deck, the helicopter and the ship itself....(in case of crash on deck with a postcrash fire as a potential outcome)
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
BH,
Although this occurred a few years ago, it hasn't taken much checking to find that you seem to be blaming the wrong driver. As I alluded in my previous post, it would have made more sense for the Westpac ship to be top cover aft and left, allowing Rick to depart right and back when finished fast roping.
I understand that was the brief. Rick followed that plan, expecting the other BK to then slide in to the vacated space from his left.
If you know differently (other than relying upon comments on a three year old YouTube clip) then I stand to be corrected.
Although this occurred a few years ago, it hasn't taken much checking to find that you seem to be blaming the wrong driver. As I alluded in my previous post, it would have made more sense for the Westpac ship to be top cover aft and left, allowing Rick to depart right and back when finished fast roping.
I understand that was the brief. Rick followed that plan, expecting the other BK to then slide in to the vacated space from his left.
If you know differently (other than relying upon comments on a three year old YouTube clip) then I stand to be corrected.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 161
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From: New Zealand
Questionable motives
John, I sent bell hater a PM on 27 November outlining the facts of the exercise. Despite this, he has chosen to ignore the facts and tried to revive the thread to continue to have a crack at RL/Helipro.
It was an exercise. Lessons were learned. The boys in blue (or in black as it was that day) are not happy with it being rehashed in this way so long after the fact. I can't imagine that the pilot of the second ship is terribly impressed either.
TK
It was an exercise. Lessons were learned. The boys in blue (or in black as it was that day) are not happy with it being rehashed in this way so long after the fact. I can't imagine that the pilot of the second ship is terribly impressed either.
TK