Millionaire helicopter pilots to ferry emergency services...
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The Harrogate Incident;
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...EW%2011-09.pdf
I hope this puts that side of the discussion to rest.
The examiner reported it was conducted in good weather conditions with only a light wind and that he was impressed by the standard of the pilot. He passed the pilot on all elements of the test, assessing him as well above average ability. The examiner stated that the pilot had, however, allowed the aircraft to weathercock during a spot turn, requiring him to repeat the exercise. The pilot had, however, been able to control the weathercocking without intervention and had repeated the exercise to a satisfactorary standard. The examiner stated that the pilot was ‘level headed and capable’ and he considered that he had flown to the same standard expected of a pilot undergoing a commercial Skills Test.
I hope this puts that side of the discussion to rest.
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Hughes 500, You are quite right, in all the years I did Sar/hems I never came across a hospital with an instrument approach... However, I did come across a lot of airfields with instrument approaches that I could either land at, or break out to visual and then continue to the nearby hospital, instead of landing in a field in the middle of nowhere, nowhere near a hospital, with a patient on board.
Additionally, I personally find it an awful lot less stressful to be above msa, in an IFR equipped machine, with everything plugged in, than to be working very hard at low level in poor weather, single pilot, to fly, nav, and communicate.
As regards the kit in air ambulances, why should a patient expect a lower level of equipment or care in a helicopter than a road ambulance. Now I appreciate in the more built up parts of our country a patient might only be on board for 10-15 minutes, where I live (and workd in that environment), 45 minutes or more would not be unusual, and given the weather we experience, the IFR part regularly made the difference between being able to get the job done or not. I appreciate that the authority does not make it easy to get an IR and the capability does cost, but it is useful, and honestly, in poor weather it is the easiest way of getting from a to b.
Additionally, I personally find it an awful lot less stressful to be above msa, in an IFR equipped machine, with everything plugged in, than to be working very hard at low level in poor weather, single pilot, to fly, nav, and communicate.
As regards the kit in air ambulances, why should a patient expect a lower level of equipment or care in a helicopter than a road ambulance. Now I appreciate in the more built up parts of our country a patient might only be on board for 10-15 minutes, where I live (and workd in that environment), 45 minutes or more would not be unusual, and given the weather we experience, the IFR part regularly made the difference between being able to get the job done or not. I appreciate that the authority does not make it easy to get an IR and the capability does cost, but it is useful, and honestly, in poor weather it is the easiest way of getting from a to b.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Chopjock;
Ok, so what about those other comments about the weather that night?;
Just because pax in back can not see much out the front, does not mean the pilot in front can only see the same. Pilot can obviously see in front and below to keep the surface in sight. Or did you not think that was the case?
Ok, so what about those other comments about the weather that night?;
It was not a night to be airborne because the weather was foul. The mist had closed in so it was hard to see further than a few yards. My husband Thomas and I watched in horror as the helicopter touched the tops of trees in our garden. "It was clear the pilot was struggling to control the machine. Thankfully it made a very bumpy landing in the grounds of the college. The pilot was first out and looked ashen. He saw us watching through the college gates and came over to ask, 'Where am I?' He just seemed relieved to be alive.
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Silso,
Do you believe everything you read in the press?
Pax in back said "just white ahead" well obviously if you believe that then it wasn't dark yet either!
A precautionary landing in bad wx was the right thing to do. You expect the press to sensationalize it.
Do you believe everything you read in the press?
Pax in back said "just white ahead" well obviously if you believe that then it wasn't dark yet either!
A precautionary landing in bad wx was the right thing to do. You expect the press to sensationalize it.
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Amongst all the sound and fury here I sense a few important points are being missed.
This is never going to happen without the CAA approving it.
This is never going to happen without the dead hand of the trumpton's elf 'n safety department picking it to pieces.
Those two alone should make sure it is run properly or it just won't happen. And by the time they've found you actually need an AOC and all the rest for this to fly I think it will just wither and die.
How could you fit firemen in their bulky kit into the back of a H500? It's the least suitable machine imaginable.
It doesn't smell right - there's more than a whiff of Walt in all this. The guy may well have a CPL but if he doesn't have the experience to go with it that isn't going to help him, is it?
The mere fact he's even suggesting doing this with a single indicates to me that he doesn't understand what he's getting into.
"Private helicopter" What a daft expression. What's a public helicopter? Military or other government owned ones I suppose. aah!, the press....
This is never going to happen without the CAA approving it.
This is never going to happen without the dead hand of the trumpton's elf 'n safety department picking it to pieces.
Those two alone should make sure it is run properly or it just won't happen. And by the time they've found you actually need an AOC and all the rest for this to fly I think it will just wither and die.
How could you fit firemen in their bulky kit into the back of a H500? It's the least suitable machine imaginable.
It doesn't smell right - there's more than a whiff of Walt in all this. The guy may well have a CPL but if he doesn't have the experience to go with it that isn't going to help him, is it?
The mere fact he's even suggesting doing this with a single indicates to me that he doesn't understand what he's getting into.
"Private helicopter" What a daft expression. What's a public helicopter? Military or other government owned ones I suppose. aah!, the press....
Hughes 500: what beautiful innocence you possess. Long may it last. We need more people like you to counter those of us who see only doom and destruction if this "prat" goes anywhere near using a helicopter in anger.
please be advised, an LPC is like an MOT - it's good for the 40 minutes you fly it. Once you leave the building - he's back to his antics again - maybe you need a little more street wisdom eh?
And to cap it all - heeeeeerrrrrrrre's CHOP JOCK and thus the end of any normal diatribe about anything to do with helicopters.
Plonkers unite.
Bisporus: well said.
please be advised, an LPC is like an MOT - it's good for the 40 minutes you fly it. Once you leave the building - he's back to his antics again - maybe you need a little more street wisdom eh?
And to cap it all - heeeeeerrrrrrrre's CHOP JOCK and thus the end of any normal diatribe about anything to do with helicopters.
Plonkers unite.
Bisporus: well said.
I must say that threads such as these (even if slightly juvenile) do add enormous entertainment value to PPRuNe!
If this chap was to seriously consider carting about fully equipped fire fighters I do feel he will find the 500 a bit of a squeeze. However, in the US they have long since recognised that the 500's interior accommodation is, well, limited and have for many years now resorted to carrying passengers externally (seriously). In fact the 500 probably has more external 'passenger' carrying configurations that most other types!
Not however the most comfortable way to travel.
How could you fit firemen in their bulky kit into the back of a H500?
Not however the most comfortable way to travel.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
8pm on 25 June, of course it won't be dark 
Of course a precautionary landing is the best thing to do, but take a look at the map and with the comment...
"He made hasty plans to divert to the exclusive Pennyhill Park Hotel in Bagshot. But as the weather worsened, he had to land at Collingwood Sixth Form College in nearby Camberley."
...in mind, ask yourself, 'Just how bad was it that he couldn't make the final 200 metres to the Hotel?"
I would suggest that he was following the M3, after passing a mile or 2 to the south of Blackbushe just a few minutes earlier, and then came upon the 200ft pylon line that he couldn't get over!!!!
Not pressonitis someone said earlier
Absolute madness for this to go ahead and if it does, I cant say it loud enough...
...ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN !
Of course a precautionary landing is the best thing to do, but take a look at the map and with the comment...
"He made hasty plans to divert to the exclusive Pennyhill Park Hotel in Bagshot. But as the weather worsened, he had to land at Collingwood Sixth Form College in nearby Camberley."
...in mind, ask yourself, 'Just how bad was it that he couldn't make the final 200 metres to the Hotel?"
I would suggest that he was following the M3, after passing a mile or 2 to the south of Blackbushe just a few minutes earlier, and then came upon the 200ft pylon line that he couldn't get over!!!!
Not pressonitis someone said earlier
The fleet of wealthy volunteers hopes to save lives by ferrying specialist crews to the scene of road traffic accidents, stranded flood victims and trapped climbers.
Absolute madness for this to go ahead and if it does, I cant say it loud enough...
...ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN !
We have to commend that he decided to land.
If the weather was as bad as what's is being said then *maybe* he shouldn't have set off in the first place but the fact is he did and all ended ok. BUT hopefully he has reflected and learned from the experience.
We're all surprised and naturally concerned about this idea of Mr Paxton being implemented. Having a fleet of helicopters available for massive disasters is not a bad idea (I'm going to liken it to a Dunkirk style scenario) but for everyday use this sort of thing should be left to the professionals.
I'm not saying Mr Paxton isn't capable of doing such work but the manner in which all this is being presented and other related history paints a picture of an Egotistical individual. I'm not saying that is how he is, I'm saying that's the impression I get from the published things that I've read about him. Egotism is present in most of us pilots but at differing levels. A high level of Egotism is not a good thing in aviation.
H500 - my main concern is that this all smacks of a Mark Weir scenario and I would truly hate it that yet another fellow pilot goes down the same lines as this. I'm sure many other PPRUNErs share this sentiment hence all the posting on this matter. Perhaps, given you have flown with Mr Paxton, you could speak to him privately about his ideas, weather limits, potential pitfalls etc with the view to ensuring his attitude is correct towards all this; particularly when getting involved with the Emergency Services - he might not like what he hears but hopefully it may make him think about things that matter and, should it go ahead, make the operation SAFER.
Safety from discussion is never a bad thing.
If the weather was as bad as what's is being said then *maybe* he shouldn't have set off in the first place but the fact is he did and all ended ok. BUT hopefully he has reflected and learned from the experience.
We're all surprised and naturally concerned about this idea of Mr Paxton being implemented. Having a fleet of helicopters available for massive disasters is not a bad idea (I'm going to liken it to a Dunkirk style scenario) but for everyday use this sort of thing should be left to the professionals.
I'm not saying Mr Paxton isn't capable of doing such work but the manner in which all this is being presented and other related history paints a picture of an Egotistical individual. I'm not saying that is how he is, I'm saying that's the impression I get from the published things that I've read about him. Egotism is present in most of us pilots but at differing levels. A high level of Egotism is not a good thing in aviation.
H500 - my main concern is that this all smacks of a Mark Weir scenario and I would truly hate it that yet another fellow pilot goes down the same lines as this. I'm sure many other PPRUNErs share this sentiment hence all the posting on this matter. Perhaps, given you have flown with Mr Paxton, you could speak to him privately about his ideas, weather limits, potential pitfalls etc with the view to ensuring his attitude is correct towards all this; particularly when getting involved with the Emergency Services - he might not like what he hears but hopefully it may make him think about things that matter and, should it go ahead, make the operation SAFER.
Safety from discussion is never a bad thing.
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Guys,
As Agaricus has previously said, I don't think that it's likely to happen. Certainly not in an organised fashion.
If the sh*t hits the fan and there is some major catastrophic incident which requires the transportation of equipment and personell then it's possible that all hands will be on deck and every available resource might be employed to do whatever it takes to provide assistance.
What that incident might be, well , who knows? But I think if it were to happen, then it would become reasonably apparent, and the rule book would be going out the window.
On a separate, but similiar note, how would everyone have felt if Mr Paxton had offered (indeed he may have done) to assist in the search for April Jones (the missing girl in Wales). Assuming he conducted his search in VFR conditions and with a 'navigator' on board, would that have been acceptable ?
Joel
As Agaricus has previously said, I don't think that it's likely to happen. Certainly not in an organised fashion.
If the sh*t hits the fan and there is some major catastrophic incident which requires the transportation of equipment and personell then it's possible that all hands will be on deck and every available resource might be employed to do whatever it takes to provide assistance.
What that incident might be, well , who knows? But I think if it were to happen, then it would become reasonably apparent, and the rule book would be going out the window.
On a separate, but similiar note, how would everyone have felt if Mr Paxton had offered (indeed he may have done) to assist in the search for April Jones (the missing girl in Wales). Assuming he conducted his search in VFR conditions and with a 'navigator' on board, would that have been acceptable ?
Joel
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This is a little bit similar to the scheme in the U.S. where private owners help out with their helicopters for lost person searches etc.
However, whilst over the pond you would likely get Harrison Ford or John Travolta coming to your rescue, the poor Brits will be having Noel Edmonds, Doctor Fox and the Hamster rocking up.
Or, just when you thought your day couldn't get any worse...Katie Price.
However, whilst over the pond you would likely get Harrison Ford or John Travolta coming to your rescue, the poor Brits will be having Noel Edmonds, Doctor Fox and the Hamster rocking up.
Or, just when you thought your day couldn't get any worse...Katie Price.
... Ginger Spice with Jay Kay singing through the SkyShout fitted especially for the mission!
Chris Evans could cover the radio for everyone and Sir David Jason could sort out all the plonkers!
JT - he could help with the search but we would need to insure the search was done correctly - would a thermal camera be used, what search pattern would be adopted AND, typical of today's society; who would be responsible should they have missed something crucial?
Supplementary organised searching in appropriate weather conditions = GREAT IDEA. LoneRanger with a 'can do anything' attitude = BAD IDEA
Chris Evans could cover the radio for everyone and Sir David Jason could sort out all the plonkers!
JT - he could help with the search but we would need to insure the search was done correctly - would a thermal camera be used, what search pattern would be adopted AND, typical of today's society; who would be responsible should they have missed something crucial?
Supplementary organised searching in appropriate weather conditions = GREAT IDEA. LoneRanger with a 'can do anything' attitude = BAD IDEA
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On a separate, but similiar note, how would everyone have felt if Mr Paxton had offered (indeed he may have done) to assist in the search for April Jones (the missing girl in Wales). Assuming he conducted his search in VFR conditions and with a 'navigator' on board, would that have been acceptable ?
Having said that, without a IR camera it would probably have been a waste of time so, still better to keep it with the pro's.
Not wishing to make a point either way, but a few years ago you could fly into the Royal International Air Tattoo.
Part of the landing brief was given over to specifics regarding helicopters and there was a section covering the obligations of all helicopters and their pilots present to make themselves available in the event of a major incident. It didn't distinguish pilots by military, CPL or lowly PPL.....
To echo Joel's point above, if the fan and the s**t come together, it makes sense to me to have rules that can be flexed to make best use of resources to achieve the best outcome.
Part of the landing brief was given over to specifics regarding helicopters and there was a section covering the obligations of all helicopters and their pilots present to make themselves available in the event of a major incident. It didn't distinguish pilots by military, CPL or lowly PPL.....
To echo Joel's point above, if the fan and the s**t come together, it makes sense to me to have rules that can be flexed to make best use of resources to achieve the best outcome.
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Guys
All interesting points, and clearly there would have to be some strategy adopted, but it seems as if the idea might be reasonably well received. Obviously the circumstances would have to be right (weather, search detail, etc) but I guess the point is that another set of eyes (even without the correct equipment may be beneficial. even if it were just a cursory search of an area prior to the search teams attending with the correct equipment.
Joel
All interesting points, and clearly there would have to be some strategy adopted, but it seems as if the idea might be reasonably well received. Obviously the circumstances would have to be right (weather, search detail, etc) but I guess the point is that another set of eyes (even without the correct equipment may be beneficial. even if it were just a cursory search of an area prior to the search teams attending with the correct equipment.
Joel
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Guys, why is everyone up in arms about this and allowing the issue to draw some of you into name-calling and dragging up irrelevant historical events?
It sounds like a generous offer to me, but that is as far as it can go without the required AOC or approvals from the relevant authorities.
Ag Bis got it right a few posts ago. He also identified another word which is screaming out - Walt! This is why the authorities exist.
There should be no need to get heated on here. If he gets the approvals and runs a professional outfit, excellent, someone will benefit from his generosity down the road. Who knows, it could even be a conceptual testbed that might be followed in other areas of the UK and even employ some professional helicopter pilots in the future.
We need to relax and let the authorities do what they are there for.
Tam
It sounds like a generous offer to me, but that is as far as it can go without the required AOC or approvals from the relevant authorities.
Ag Bis got it right a few posts ago. He also identified another word which is screaming out - Walt! This is why the authorities exist.
There should be no need to get heated on here. If he gets the approvals and runs a professional outfit, excellent, someone will benefit from his generosity down the road. Who knows, it could even be a conceptual testbed that might be followed in other areas of the UK and even employ some professional helicopter pilots in the future.
We need to relax and let the authorities do what they are there for.
Tam
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One observation. This thread is largely based on "newspaper reporting"
I don't buy/read newspapers because, IMO, the majority of journalism is distorted, inaccurate, mis-reported, over-sensationalised, mis-quoted.....
'Courting the press' can often lead to burnt fingers, but I wouldn't resort to judge, jury and hangman without wishing to hear Mr Paxton's comments.
I don't buy/read newspapers because, IMO, the majority of journalism is distorted, inaccurate, mis-reported, over-sensationalised, mis-quoted.....
'Courting the press' can often lead to burnt fingers, but I wouldn't resort to judge, jury and hangman without wishing to hear Mr Paxton's comments.
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Hi All,
I wonder if it's worth setting up some form of Immediate Action team ?
we could have a uniform and use aliases (instead of our real names).
Just a thought?
Joel
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I wonder if it's worth setting up some form of Immediate Action team ?
we could have a uniform and use aliases (instead of our real names).
Just a thought?
Joel
[IMG]
[/IMG]
Avoid imitations
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Hi All,
I wonder if it's worth setting up some form of Immediate Action team ?
we could have a uniform and use aliases (instead of our real names).
Just a thought?
Joel
I wonder if it's worth setting up some form of Immediate Action team ?
we could have a uniform and use aliases (instead of our real names).
Just a thought?
Joel