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Old 6th Feb 2012, 17:55
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Yeah. The ICAO CPL and IR could be a problem.
I bet Epiphany had full ATPL already, hence no issue.

I've seen some South African guys having do do their FAA 61.75 validation at FSDO, who only came in to get minimum Puma training done for FAA ATP, a requirement for the Afghanistan or wherever job.

At least AFAIK, you don't need FAA instructor sign-off for the written or checkride, if you manage to get stuff done for the ATP ride. Unlike CPL written or checkride. If you have to do CPL in the end, Dauntless Soft or bit of ground with nearby FAA CFI discussing regs and then signing you off is needed (the online written training websites can provide the sign offs). CFII for IR.

At least you don't need Canadian ATP ride in multipilot helicopter
If you want job in ME, definitely bring full ATP along, for easy upgrade from copilot to PIC without the need to do local theory. That's what I've read around here.

EDIT: guys too fast, already posted most stuff. Nothing says you cannot do more than one checkride in a day (or following day/s) so long you got 'boxes ticked'. You get the CPL validated to FAA PPL (no checkride), get minimum training/familiarisation done, do writtens, schedule checkride.

You wrote you got some 330nm flights in Mi17. Well, it's not just the qualifying LONG xc flight, but also the 500hrs total crosscountry time with the minimum distance, for FAA rating. Airplane time can be credited to an extent as detailed in CFR/FARs.
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 18:03
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i don't think visa would be a problem for me, actually I might go to USA on government expense for a year

so regarding written exams, do I have to do all three of them or just ATP?

I understood that I have to get first CPL and IR to get ATP.
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 18:21
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As you hold an ICAO commercial you without an IR, you have two choices. You need to do one of the following:

1. Get your ICAO license valid again---it is useless if it is expired.
2. Get an ICAO IR.
3. Pass the FAA ATP written and flight test, (which will include the IR).

Then you can just do the FAA ATP written and flight test, based upon your foreign licenses.

OR

1. Pass the FAA private written and flight test.
2. Pass the FAA commercial written and flight test.
3. Pass the FAA ATP written and flight test, (which will include the IR).

ALL of your "verified" military hours will count towards the hours requirements. However you will need to meet the aeronautical experience requirements of, (emphasis added by me):

FAR 61.109 (c) for the Private.

(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must include at least--

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes--

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least--

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
AND:

FAR 61.129(c)

(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least--

(i) 35 hours in helicopters; and

(ii) 10 hours in cross-country flight in helicopters.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127(b)(3) of this part that includes at least--

[(i) Five hours on the control and maneuvering of a helicopter solely by reference to instruments using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. This aeronautical experience may be performed in an aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or an aviation training device;

(ii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a helicopter in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a helicopter in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(iv) Three hours in a helicopter with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a helicopter or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (c)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(3) that includes--]

(i) One cross-country flight with landings at a minimum of three points, with one segment consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern).
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 18:34
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Gordy, so long he revalidates his ICAO CPL, he'd be better of getting part 61.75 foreign licence validation/verification. There's no point paying another checkride and written fee. Tons of information on PPRuNe about validation.
It's smooth if all well prepared. I've done it twice.

If going the FAA ratings route, he'd have to do IR checkride before ATP, not to forget.
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 18:51
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Gordy I will have JAR CPL(H), when I renew my license.
from what I red in FAR with that license I can get FAA PPL without any tests.

I want to get FAA IR CPL and ATP because doing JAR has no economical sense for me (the price is so high, that salary increase will not cover it, so it is better to just stay in military) and I don't know where I could get ICAO licenses, and why would I do it when FAA IR is much cheaper.

so, can I take only ATP written, and then do some flight training and do flight exams for IR, CPL and ATP, or I have to do IR written than IR flight, CPL written than CPL flight, and at the end ATP written and ATP flight?
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 19:21
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I now live in the US and hold a JAR CPL(H), to get a FAA PPL(H) based on my UK licence I had to pay the CAA to allow them to verify my licence to the FAA. Then to get my FAA CPL(H) I had to take the CPL exam but first the school had to sign my log book to say that I had the knowledge to take the exam.
As for the flying test I had to just fly the required amount to reach the required standard for test.
Don't know if this helps.
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 20:15
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Good idea. You're not the first.
I wanted to do CPL written instead of PPL and CPL written after, but was greatly discouraged not to bring 'different' (although higher) written pass paper for the checkride. I did read through FARs and there's no clause of substitution I could find implicitly.

If you get it approved from FSDO or Chief Counsel then it'd do. Would save you 300 bucks. The paperwork sent out from DPE has the original pass paper and if used for more than one checkride, you'd either have to get 3 originals or have it all sent out together. Hmm.
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 21:00
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MartinCh

Gordy, so long he revalidates his ICAO CPL, he'd be better of getting part 61.75 foreign licence validation/verification.
Pretty much what I said I thought anyway:

1. Get your ICAO license valid again---it is useless if it is expired.
2. Get an ICAO IR.
3. Pass the FAA ATP written and flight test, (which will include the IR).
Apart from I did not mention about the validation part. The validation of his foreign commercial is only good for obtaining certificates and ratings. He would need to complete an FAA commercial checkride in order to exercise commercial privileges.

FAR 61.175

He still needs to do the initial ATP(H), as he only has ATPL(A).
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 22:29
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Don't forget to checkout flightschoolcandidates.gov for the TSA approval.

You'll need to create an account, get the flight school you are going to do your 3hrs training and sign off to approve your application.

You'll need to pay a fee and get fingerprints taken from an approved place, possibly a local US embassy or consulate.
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Old 6th Feb 2012, 23:51
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ICAO PPL or higher to PPL max in FAA now. It used to be also for CPL validation, stopped decade or two ago. I did not imply he'd get FAA CPL through validation (not counting Canadian fixed wing CPL maybe)

Oh, btw, if he had full ATPL or CPL/IR and did the test in Non-N-reg (one he'd be authorised to act as PIC, he would very maybe get away with having to do the full or validation PPL.

61.153 does talk about meeting the knowledge, flight skills, aeronautical experience etc, but I fail to see definitely saying that holders of foreign ATPL with different category/class cannot use that towards meeting the said part. It does not say which category and class, just ATP or foreign ATP.

I know it sounds crazy, but if the regs don't prohibit it, they should allow it, no?
61.123 - 2h (general eligibility for CPL) requires having at least PPL
61.153 - 3h: Comply with the sections of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.

Anyone tried this special case in the past? Any FAA Chief Counsel interpretation/opinion anyone knows of? Food for thought.
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 00:38
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They can use the hours---just have to meet the requirements---which include the 3 hours within the preceding how ever many days.
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 01:34
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FAQs of AFS-800 from doc posted online.
Well, not there yet, finding the precedent for using ICAO ATPL(A) and constituent IR(A) for FAA ATP(H) without IR(H) from anywhere. But it does ring very close to that 'mix and match' acceptability.

Either way, I FOUND GOOD PRECEDENT for NOT HAVING TO DO CPL checkride, since you want ATP papers. You have CPL from Serbia or Slovenia (or thereabouts) and once you have FAA IR(H) added to your 61.75 validation, you're ready to do ATP ride with ATP written pass.

I can take 10% of savings as beer spending money if we cross our paths in real life, for all the research I've done for you.

QUESTION: An applicant holds a foreign commercial pilot license but does not hold an instrument rating from that country. This pilot holds a restricted U.S. private pilot certificate (issued on the basis of his British commercial pilot license in accordance with § 61.75). He also holds, on that restricted certificate, an Instrument-Airplane rating (U.S. Test Passed) earned in accordance with our Part 61 with required instrument training and our knowledge and practical tests. May this pilot “mix & match” these certificates to meet the eligibility requirement of § 61.153(d)(1) and/or (3) to make application for a U.S. ATP certificate?


ANSWER: Ref. § 61.153(d)(3); Yes. This has been acceptable policy within the Airman Certification Branch, AFS-700, Oklahoma City, OK, and they will accept applications with this “. . . mixing and matching of the two provisions” [i.e., § 61.153(d)(1) and (3)]. This policy has further been acknowledged as acceptable by the Manager of Certification Branch, AFS 840, Washington, DC. Because in this situation, the rationale for this policy is the applicant does hold a “. . . foreign commercial pilot license and an instrument rating, without limitations issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.” Even though the Instrument Airplane rating is on the U.S. private pilot certificate, the United States is a “. . . contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.” So, in effect, this policy is not considered a mixing and matching of § 61.153(d)(1) and (3), but is purely acceptable under § 61.153(d)(3) alone.
{Q&A-390}
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 02:05
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No research necessary----everything is in this thread already.

1. Get your ICAO license valid again---it is useless if it is expired.
2. Get an ICAO IR.
3. Pass the FAA ATP written and flight test, (which will include the IR).
You miss the whole point---his Serbian CPL has EXPIRED....as he stated in post 1

got ICAO CPL(H) with type rating for Schweizer300, which expired but I can renew it
Therefore he needs to re-validate that first. He NEVER did have to do an FAA commercial.

He can then obtain the foreign IR...then he meets the requirements of FAR 61.1523(d)(3) and can then do the ATP without having to do an FAA commercial.

As Birddog stated, he will need TSA approval.
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 04:52
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Uf...
Boys you lost me somewhere at previous page!

I dont have ICAO ATPL(A)+IR, i have passed theory(written exams) for ATPL(A) and IR through university (14 written exams instead FAA ATP one written exam). I also did conversion course for JAR ATPL(A) theory, so in a future I could do just helicopter differential to get JAR/EASA ATPL(H) theory, or written exams if you prefer.

I know that I need visa and TSA or which ever check, it will be no problem...

I have no intention to do ICAO or JAR IR, it cost fortune! And if i had that I wouldn't do FAA licenses...

I know that I have to renew my ICAO CPL(H), and it will be converted to JAR

So from what i seen looks like i will have to do:

1. renew my ICAO CPL(H) => JAR CPL(H), no big deal
2. get visa and TSA approval, no big deal
3. get FAA medical, no big deal (would they accept JAR ?)
4. do a FAA validation of my JAR CPL(H) => FAA PPL(H), seems not to be big deal
5. written exams (do I have to do all three or just ATP, in JAR/EASA ATPL covers for CPL and IR), couple of hundred of $ and still less than 14 JAR exams and one year of dedicated hard studding
6. To do 3h of training with CFI, probably some more because I am used to fly much bigger helicopter than one schools have. no big deal (unless i need something like 40hours, than I am just a lousy pilot, I hope if I survived so far I am not that bad)
7.Checkride(s) for IR and probably CPL, and then for ATP?

PS. If any of you boy visit Croatia drop me a message, beer, wine or poison of choice will be provided in overwhelming amounts
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 06:05
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1. renew my ICAO CPL(H) => JAR CPL(H), no big deal
2. get visa and TSA approval, no big deal
3. get FAA medical, no big deal (would they accept JAR ?)
4. do a FAA validation of my JAR CPL(H) => FAA PPL(H), seems not to be big deal
5. written exams (do I have to do all three or just ATP, in JAR/EASA ATPL covers for CPL and IR), couple of hundred of $ and still less than 14 JAR exams and one year of dedicated hard studding
6. To do 3h of training with CFI, probably some more because I am used to fly much bigger helicopter than one schools have. no big deal (unless i need something like 40hours, than I am just a lousy pilot, I hope if I survived so far I am not that bad)
7.Checkride(s) for IR and probably CPL, and then for ATP?
1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Will NOT accept JAR.
4. Correct---paperwork exercise--make sure you have logbooks in order.
5. You will have to do at least the instrument and ATP...not commercial
6. 3 hours minimum---this is just for the instrument training. You will also need to be proficient in the aircraft for ALL of the VFR maneuvers required on the ATP flight check---this means autorotations etc. My guess is more than 3 hours to get proficient.
7. Flight checks for Instrument and ATP, (which may be combined I think...).

As Martinch mentioned....you will need to meet the 500 hours of cross-country flight time. It is defined as any flight with a landing more than 25nm from the point of departure. You will need aviation charts and your logbook and will need to prove that 500 hours of your flight time meets that requirement. You may wish to start creating a spreadsheet showing that time along with the page number from your logbook.
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 07:36
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In addition:

Where a flight requires to be of a certain distance...say to qualify as 'X-C (30nm as the crow flies), if it was done outside of the USA, take a chart to the checkride or have access to an online distance calculator. I've seen a picky examiner stop a checkride because the candidate could not verify the overseas distances flown.

Beware of the validity time of your charts and plates. Showing up with expired material is an epic 'fail'. If necessary borrow (photocopy) for your training, then buy a set which will be valid for your checkride.
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 08:32
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well I guess it will not be a problem to bring a chart of Croatia, so that distances can be verified...
Seams to me that hardest job will be to make excel for all 500h of XC flying
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 08:58
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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IR(H)

7.Checkride(s) for IR and probably CPL, and then for ATP?

Hmm...you have JAR CPL-H ... But still not JAR CPL-H with IR(H) ....or ICAO, whatever ...

I´m not sure that only checkride for FAA IR(H) will be enough ...

...I think you should first have to put your IR(H) into JAR or ICAO licence...

Because, if you miss this step, you will stay (only) on FAA CPL-H VFR...that mean, no FAA ATPL-H.

Only my opinion, maybe I´m wrong, maybe someone here can explain this better ...

note1: if you have ICAO CPL(H), first have to complete JAR ATPL(H) theory, before JAR CPL (H) licence....(bridge from A to H theory)...
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 09:22
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no, in FAR it states that one needs 3h with CFII within two months before check ride, 40h of IFR of which 15 should be on helicopter, or something like that... and I have in my logbook 180h of IFR (transferred from military logbook)

why would I do FAA IR and ATP if I have to pay 55000E just to get JAR IR...
then I would just stay in military, I love flying and I fly, but I will not pay to fly...

someday my country will need civil helicopter pilots for HEMS, and then government will realize what they have done when they blocked military pilots in obtaining civil licenses. then they will need to find a way to license us or they will need to hire foreign pilots.
it will be in hard to explain that because they have 50 retired military pilots who use to do that till yesterday, pilot in early forties, with all theoretical knowledge, with all experiences, but no licenses...
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 09:34
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no, in FAR it states that one needs 3h with CFII within two months before check ride

OK, I didn´t know that, in that case no problem about that ...
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