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About this JAR-EASA transition...again

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About this JAR-EASA transition...again

Old 2nd Dec 2011, 13:19
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About this JAR-EASA transition...again

Hey there,

I while back there was a thread abou jar cpl(h) becoming atpl(h) vfr. I've been going through lasors and AESA(spanish authority) to get a couple of answers.

Amendment 6:

JAR–FCL 2.050 Crediting of flight time and
theoretical knowledge

"(9) An applicant having passed the
theoretical knowledge examination for a
CPL(H) under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H).
(10) The holder of a CPL(H) gained
under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up
to and including Amendment 3 is credited with
the theoretical knowledge requirements for
ATPL(H).


Right, although it might seem pretty obvious(sorry for that)...i read (10) and my question is, if this was my case and i was issued this atpl theory credits, would i need to go thru IR theory exams since i already have atpl theory? Our civil aviation is not really helping here, as usual, it took 3 more years to add amendment 6 in our country. Thanks in advance guys!!!

Tc
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 19:14
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If you passed the theoretical exams (VFR AND IFR) under the above mentioned ammendment, you don´t need to sit an exam again...

But you will have to pass the test flight-and you´ll need to have a multi-pilot helicopter type rating BEFORE you can do the checkride....
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 21:17
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Ah right, that's the bit i was looking for. I just hold a CPL(h) and i understood that with new rules i would have credit for atpl(h) theory and hoping not having to go thru more exams in case of pursuing an IR. Thanks for the head-ups, much appreciated...

Cheers!
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Old 2nd Dec 2011, 21:56
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Hueyracer - can you quote a reference to the EASA Aircrew Regulation that allows this? Whilst it is true that CPL(H) exams passed or a CPL(H) gained under the earlier amendments to JAR-FCL 2 give theoretical knowledge credit for the issue of a JAA ATPL(H), I can find nothing in the Regulation or its Annexes to support the view that those credits will remain valid for the issue of an EASA ATPL(H).
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 04:50
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I think everyone's working on the assumption that as EASA is underfunded and understaffed, nothing much will really happen to the regs.

If you only hold a CPL(H), you will have to do the IR theory to get the full ATPL(H). Otherwise it can morph into the ATPL(H)(VFR) if you ask nicely.
If you did the proper ATPL(H) TK before, that includes the IR.

FYI, there are no plans to do special exams or courses for the VFR ATPL, they will be produced on request from schools. Interestingly, it would appear that the "new" CPL(H) (with a lot of stuff missing) together with IR will still count as the equivalent of ATPL(H), so you will not get to study INS, the Super Puma in M & B, many other items, and still get the ATP.

Strange

Phil
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 05:58
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Sorry, i do not have any information about the EASA-regs regarding this "credit"-i was relating to the "credit policy" that was mentioned in the opening post..


Fact is:

You only get this "credit", if you passed the exam between 2002 and 2007 (AFAIR)-because this is the time period where the agreements were in place.

Everyone coming after that is a different story...
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 11:12
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I did my CPL exams in 2008 still under Amd.2 of the JAR FCL 2 and got the ATPL-VFR credit on a paper. It meant for the IR-H in 2010 I only had to do four assignments:
-Radio navigation
-Flight performance and planning
-Air law
-Instruments (though in the german JAR-FCL 2 this assignment is not officially listed for the ATPL-VFR theory credit holder!)

Should be a similar story in the rest of JAA-land!?
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 13:37
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Eivissa, that sounds interesting enought. I did my cpl theory on 2008(Spain)also, but i don't really know under which ammendment it was. I'll keep bothering our CAA, although i'm not hoping them to be really helpful. Again, thanks for the hints...

Cheers!
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 15:03
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It might be worth mentioning that Ive started the CPL training in 2007, so that could have made a difference to the German CAA (LBA). Though I never heard about the timeframe that hueyracer mentioned. I only focussed on the fact that I did my training under ammendment 2 which was active until November 2008 (dont quote me on that one). Germany then jumped streight to ammendment 6.

In your case the thing should be just as streight forward. In 2008 Spain was at ammendment 3 of the JAR-FCL 2. Now your problem will be that the Spanish authorities seem to have no f***ing idea how to read the JAR-FCL/BOE! I have been in contact with them as well and they needed weeks to respond only to tell me that they dont agree with the way the german authorities handle and follow the JAR-FCL2.

For you the relevant section is JAR-FCL 2.050 and Annex 4 to it, the BOE section is just the same. Print out those two sections, highlight the relevant sentences and send it over to the DCAC or whatever they are called these days. Say you want your theory credit for the "ATPL visual". Thats how it worked for some of my colleagues in Spain. If they acknowledge it (and they should), you only have to do 3-4 assignments to get the full ATPL-H theory credit.

The guy to talk to should be José María García Bautista ([email protected]) if he is still in charge.

Good luck!!
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Old 4th Dec 2011, 16:23
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Eivissa,

Zillion thanks for the help mate. Will catch up the contact you gave and start from there and see what i get. If all goes well, i´ll try to go thru theory next year, then i´ll have three to complete IR flight time. As i hold a multi-engine TR now i might save some pennies when the time comes. I´ll let you know. Again, THANks!
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 10:15
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Any update now EASA regs are in effect?

Looked through CAP 804 with no definitive answer.

ATPL's completed in 2005, Current CPL(H), IR theory sat again in 2011 (ATPL's expired to the issue of IR). On completing an IR practical course does the CPL+IR still count as ATPL(H) once the multi-pilot and night flying requirements have been met?

I know this used to be the case, but not sure whether EASA has changed this?

Thanks
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 12:56
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It has changed - the combination of CPLH/IR is no longer equivalent to the Full ATPLH.

Why did you have to do the CPL(H) again - shirley your atpl would have lapsed to a cplh anyway if you didn't get the ir?

phil

Last edited by paco; 25th Sep 2012 at 12:57.
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 13:11
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Hi Paco I didn't have to do the CPL again, I'll try an clarify:
2005 - ATPL(H) exams with which I completed the CPL(H) and FI and started working.
2011 - Re-sat IR exams as ATPL's expired.
Now - looking at what (if anything) in addition to the IR practical would need to be achieved to complete the ATPL(H) with EASA... I was hoping that as I finished the CPL on the ATPL exams that they were still credited towards the frozen ATPL as used to be the case. I know a few other people in the same scenario. If this is not the case do you have any idea what additional would be required?

Thanks
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 13:41
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Your "CPL" is amendment 3 by the look of it, so the IR would have refreshed your ATP back to its former state and it looks like that is in date. Now you need the flying hours and the MCC I believe.

As there are so few helicopter MCC places (watch this space! ) I'm told the CAA will accept a fixed wing one.

Phil
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 13:58
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Much appreciated - I did email FCLweb and ask but response time is 10+ days at the moment so asked here too. I believe (an hope!) that that's correct
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 16:00
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AFAIR from a talk to one of the German CAA guys, the theorie papers are only valid for 7 years..

No source for that......just double check it..
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 16:22
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Reference to the 7 years is found in JAR FCL2
-2.185
-2.261
-2.262
-2.495

Enjoy the reading
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 16:40
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Thanks Elvissa,

JAR–FCL 2.495 Acceptance period
(a) A pass in the theoretical knowledge examinations given in accordance with JAR–FCL 2.490 will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(H) or IR(H) during the 36 months from the date of gaining a Pass in all the required examination papers.

[(b) A pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations given in accordance with JAR-FCL 2.490 will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(H) during the 36 months from the date of gaining a Pass in all the required examination papers and will remain valid indefinitely towards the grant of the ATPL(H) provided that the applicant has a valid type rating entered in the CPL(H).]

[ ][(c)]Provided that an IR(H) is obtained in accordance with (a) above, a pass in the ATPL(H)[/IR] theoretical knowledge examination will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR(H) entered in the CPL(H) for the issuance of an ATPL(H).
[]
So as I see it, by these regs, and under part (b) - once you obtain a CPL(H) within 3 years of completing your ATPL(H) exams your ATPL's remain valid indefinitely towards the issue of ATPL(H) as long as you have a valid type on the CPL - however if you go greater than 36 months after passing the exams without completing the IR too you need to re-sit at least the IR(H) exams.

Part (c), as I understand it, is relevant to those who hold, or have held and IR, essentially saying, if you let it lapse you have 7 years to get it current again for the issue of ATPL(H) after which you would need to re-sit the exams - I assume this applies to those who don't comply with (b) - i.e. you have valid a CPL having sat the CPL exams, but then added the IR(H) theory & practical which will qualify you for ATPL(H) up to 7 years from the date of the most recent IR renewal? If you complied with (b) by taking the ATPL(H) exams you have the ATPL credited indefinitely right? so this wouldn't make sense

So is JAR FCL 2 still in place, or at least does it still stand WRT licenses/exams taken when it was in place? If it has been superseded would the new regulations only apply to those taking exams from now moving forwards?

Last edited by Aucky; 25th Sep 2012 at 17:13.
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 17:15
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Hi All

After contacting the CAA, I was advised that under EASA you now only need to resit 4 exams if you have gained a CPL(H) but not a IR(H) in the 3 years after completion of the ATPL exams to regain the IR credits back for another 3 years.

Taken from CAP 804

4.2 An applicant for an IR(H) having passed the relevant theoretical examinations for an ATPL(H) VFR is required to pass the following examination subjects:
– Air Law
– Flight Planning and Flight Monitoring
– Radio Navigation
– IFR Communications

I hope this is correct.

Thanks
Zero G
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Old 26th Sep 2012, 04:39
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That's for the ATPL(H)(VFR). You are only exempt Met and HF if you have a CPL(H). If yours is an amendment 3 CPL(H) (pre 2007-ish) that would be the same as the ATPL(H)(VFR)

Phil

Last edited by paco; 26th Sep 2012 at 04:41.
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