Weststar 139 tail incident 30th June 2011?
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Epiphany.......
Did you deliberately leave out the bit about using the mobile phone to contact wife/girlfriend/mistress/tottie-of-the-day (actually, scratch wife now that I think of it) whilst aloft during training sortie/skills test or were you doing the decent thing and trying to soften the blow just the tiniest bit?!
Did you deliberately leave out the bit about using the mobile phone to contact wife/girlfriend/mistress/tottie-of-the-day (actually, scratch wife now that I think of it) whilst aloft during training sortie/skills test or were you doing the decent thing and trying to soften the blow just the tiniest bit?!
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Heliski,
I am not the least bit surprised. If I were the only one that had a bad experience with these 'instructors' then I would have thought that possibly it was just me so forget it. But I have heard the same story from so many different pilots - many of them very experienced TRE's who were horrified at the low standard of instruction they were given.
Capitano Gervaxiarsey and his ilk must take their share of the blame for the appallingly low standard of many AW139 pilots that I frequently have to fly with in various parts of the world. Many of them have absolutely no idea how to check basic pre-flight planning requirements such as performance and weight and balance.
This results in a situation where low-time AW139 pilots are attempting to perform training CAT A helipad OEI rejects at 800kg over max training weight, well out of aft C of G and find themselves running out of Nr and ideas, collapsing the landing gear, losing the tail rotor and somehow walking away from the $18,000,000 write-off.
And do you know what these pilots say when questioned why they did that? 'No one taught us how to read the graphs'. The 'instructors' who should have taught them were probably too busy fixing their cravats or talking to the mistress/making excuses to the wife.
I am not the least bit surprised. If I were the only one that had a bad experience with these 'instructors' then I would have thought that possibly it was just me so forget it. But I have heard the same story from so many different pilots - many of them very experienced TRE's who were horrified at the low standard of instruction they were given.
Capitano Gervaxiarsey and his ilk must take their share of the blame for the appallingly low standard of many AW139 pilots that I frequently have to fly with in various parts of the world. Many of them have absolutely no idea how to check basic pre-flight planning requirements such as performance and weight and balance.
This results in a situation where low-time AW139 pilots are attempting to perform training CAT A helipad OEI rejects at 800kg over max training weight, well out of aft C of G and find themselves running out of Nr and ideas, collapsing the landing gear, losing the tail rotor and somehow walking away from the $18,000,000 write-off.
And do you know what these pilots say when questioned why they did that? 'No one taught us how to read the graphs'. The 'instructors' who should have taught them were probably too busy fixing their cravats or talking to the mistress/making excuses to the wife.
...they start to shout at you, wave their hands around a lot and swear in Italian.
Come and see us in New Jersey, it's a different story.
Our flight suits are a darker shade of blue.
Come and see us in New Jersey, it's a different story.
Our flight suits are a darker shade of blue.
Last edited by tottigol; 5th Jul 2011 at 15:44.
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Mmmmm ...
...... Come and see us in New Jersey ....
I intend too ... and quite soon too (I hope) ...
And also I refer back to my post #40 of this thread ...
...... Come and see us in New Jersey ....
I intend too ... and quite soon too (I hope) ...
And also I refer back to my post #40 of this thread ...
And do you know what these pilots say when questioned why they did that? 'No one taught us how to read the graphs'
Regardless of the training, any TRE who uses a training mode without knowing how it works or how to calculate the performance limitations, probably shouldn't be in that seat.
Out of interest Epiphany, as a TRE on type, how quickly does the system exit training mode once 87% is reached, and is the recomended recovery from a low Nr situation to keep pulling? On the EC-155 and S-76C+ (which do actually place an engine in idle rather than simulating it) once the Nr hits it's lower limit (320 rpm on the EC-155) it doesn't budge any lower. The idling engine simply spools up and helps the driving engine. It's seamless and simple, but the only downside is that trainees don't realise they've mishandled the aircraft, because all they see is a nice gentle touchdown!
Oh dear, never twigged he might be one of the main proponents for such poor standards with Italian TRE's. I have heard from numerous quarters (some closer than you might think
) that there is a propensity towards self personification rather than CRM.
It doesn't help, though when the Italian CAA turn a blind eye does it?
) that there is a propensity towards self personification rather than CRM.It doesn't help, though when the Italian CAA turn a blind eye does it?
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The easiest way is to blame instructors. I learned under Antonio and he was a good teacher - preflight, debriefs. What i think is that if you are laisy to learn the machine, to understand it , and you think that you have a lot of experience so you can fly anything, things happen. Of course i also have complaints over some agusta instructors but you can always take the manual and read it and again and again. And to teach how to read graphs....
how did you get your licence????
how did you get your licence????
Well there was some stories, on same level, comming from Donauworth..... 
We are grown up people, if you not getting proper service, than ask for it.
To be in position to receive TR to play with AW139, you need to have some hours and some life experience
We are grown up people, if you not getting proper service, than ask for it.
To be in position to receive TR to play with AW139, you need to have some hours and some life experience
I feel 'mission creep' setting in on this thread, but here goes before the mods re-align it
wwingrotor: If everything could be done by manuals, then there would be no need for TRE's/instructors anywhere, would there? They do more than transfer technical knowledge, they add an holistic approach to the candidates experience. They give them confidence, teach them the practicalities of flying that particular machine.
It seems from an outsider perspective, that there are certain individuals out there who have been entrusted with the unique responsibilities associated with Instructing, but prefer to concentrate on promoting the kudos instead.
Mind you I suspect a lot of it is in their Italian genes (or should I say Jeans!)
wwingrotor: If everything could be done by manuals, then there would be no need for TRE's/instructors anywhere, would there? They do more than transfer technical knowledge, they add an holistic approach to the candidates experience. They give them confidence, teach them the practicalities of flying that particular machine.
It seems from an outsider perspective, that there are certain individuals out there who have been entrusted with the unique responsibilities associated with Instructing, but prefer to concentrate on promoting the kudos instead.
Mind you I suspect a lot of it is in their Italian genes (or should I say Jeans!)
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Well, well … we started the thread discussing about what happened in Malaysia and passing through Gervasi we eventually came to the idea that Italians are bad pilots, bad instructors and so on… right?
As an Italian I’m extremely sorry to read these lines that I really hope are the idea of a very few out there.
I’m really sorry not to be trusted as a pilot just because of my nationality and, thanks God, this is not ! At all !
It’s not my intention to defend a single person but an entire group of professionals and, more than this, an entire country yes.
I also had my training in Agusta flying with an Italian instructor so professional and helpful that I use to keep bothering him every now and then when I need further clarifications about anything regarding A139.
I know of other colleagues from different countries being as happy as me about their training in Agusta and they also flew with Italian instructors so please let’s keep the mouth shut or try first to connect the brain to the mouth before offending a country that, if I don’t mistake, has, just to give a little example about the genes ( if you wish you can say jeans…), the best aerobatic team in the world.
Last but not least, the Agusta Training Academy had been run till a short time ago by a Brit so do not complain with Italians but ask the UK people what they have been doing in their period to pass their outstanding organization and standards to the poor illitterate Italians!
P.S. Tottigol I didn’t appreciate at all your darker color show off … !!!
As an Italian I’m extremely sorry to read these lines that I really hope are the idea of a very few out there.
I’m really sorry not to be trusted as a pilot just because of my nationality and, thanks God, this is not ! At all !
It’s not my intention to defend a single person but an entire group of professionals and, more than this, an entire country yes.
I also had my training in Agusta flying with an Italian instructor so professional and helpful that I use to keep bothering him every now and then when I need further clarifications about anything regarding A139.
I know of other colleagues from different countries being as happy as me about their training in Agusta and they also flew with Italian instructors so please let’s keep the mouth shut or try first to connect the brain to the mouth before offending a country that, if I don’t mistake, has, just to give a little example about the genes ( if you wish you can say jeans…), the best aerobatic team in the world.
Last but not least, the Agusta Training Academy had been run till a short time ago by a Brit so do not complain with Italians but ask the UK people what they have been doing in their period to pass their outstanding organization and standards to the poor illitterate Italians!
P.S. Tottigol I didn’t appreciate at all your darker color show off … !!!
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Hmm, this seems to be getting a bit serious.....
You can't tar everybody with the same brush and I have to say, my one recurrency with an Italian instructor in Sesto was very good, it was a thorough workout and I certainly didn't feel short-changed at the end of my stint.
Just keeping a little balance in there!
You can't tar everybody with the same brush and I have to say, my one recurrency with an Italian instructor in Sesto was very good, it was a thorough workout and I certainly didn't feel short-changed at the end of my stint.
Just keeping a little balance in there!
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Mmmmm ...
MirkoR ... Look ol' darling nobody has 'badmouthed' the Italian nation ... you are being just a bit too sensitive to the reaction of some very experienced 'pruners' who by and large have the experience to back up their opinions.
I myself have very recently had the very positive experience of flying with a couple of Italian nationals (relatively younger chaps) both ex italian military (one of whom flew Harriers with the Italian Navy) and I can only give praise to their skills, talent and attitude (and I quite liked them as people as well).
You do yourself a disservice by reacting in such a manner ... and in fact drop yourself into the same (Nationality) trap that you attempt to defend.
Most of us here on Pprune have many years of worldwide helicopter operational experience .... there are blokes we will fly with at anytime and anyplace .... there are also blokes we will run across busy traffic laden highways to avoid .... that is the way of personalities in aviation.
Get used to it ......
MirkoR ... Look ol' darling nobody has 'badmouthed' the Italian nation ... you are being just a bit too sensitive to the reaction of some very experienced 'pruners' who by and large have the experience to back up their opinions.
I myself have very recently had the very positive experience of flying with a couple of Italian nationals (relatively younger chaps) both ex italian military (one of whom flew Harriers with the Italian Navy) and I can only give praise to their skills, talent and attitude (and I quite liked them as people as well).
You do yourself a disservice by reacting in such a manner ... and in fact drop yourself into the same (Nationality) trap that you attempt to defend.
Most of us here on Pprune have many years of worldwide helicopter operational experience .... there are blokes we will fly with at anytime and anyplace .... there are also blokes we will run across busy traffic laden highways to avoid .... that is the way of personalities in aviation.
Get used to it ......
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TC, there is no thread creep here really as the accident is inextricably linked to the standard of AW instruction received by the crew.
212 - reversion should be instantaneous but recovery is assuming that the correct profile parameters are being flown, the aircraft is below max training weight, within C of G and the training captain is adequately trained and experienced on type.
When Nr reaches 80% it is not recoverable, the tail rotor is no longer effective and it is game over. This crew were very lucky that the AW139 is so well constructed that they were able to walk away from a >7g deceleration.
This accident is a perfect example of the formulae: Poor training + poor piloting skills + cultural attitudes = accident waiting to happen.
Sadly there will be more.
Mirko, the British have a saying: 'You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'. To make it a little clearer for you - AW Italy is the horse and the water is organisational skills and standards. Even when the water is taken to the horse you still cannot make it drink - unless it wants to.
212 - reversion should be instantaneous but recovery is assuming that the correct profile parameters are being flown, the aircraft is below max training weight, within C of G and the training captain is adequately trained and experienced on type.
When Nr reaches 80% it is not recoverable, the tail rotor is no longer effective and it is game over. This crew were very lucky that the AW139 is so well constructed that they were able to walk away from a >7g deceleration.
This accident is a perfect example of the formulae: Poor training + poor piloting skills + cultural attitudes = accident waiting to happen.
Sadly there will be more.
Last but not least, the Agusta Training Academy had been run till a short time ago by a Brit so do not complain with Italians but ask the UK people what they have been doing in their period to pass their outstanding organization and standards to the poor illitterate Italians!
Last edited by Epiphany; 6th Jul 2011 at 03:10.
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You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'. ...
... That means is a complete waste of time keep discussing with you.
Thank you for pointing this out.
Spinwing I do accept your reply but, as you can see, January, 6th, keeps pointing his finger against AW Italy that I'm wondering if he really knows it so well.
He should know they have a feedback procedure that allows anybody to write and report his comments in order to tune the system and, as I was told, this brought to kick somebody off the system who was not completely up to the standards.
I am happy heliski22 is also giving credit to these guys.
... That means is a complete waste of time keep discussing with you.
Thank you for pointing this out.
Spinwing I do accept your reply but, as you can see, January, 6th, keeps pointing his finger against AW Italy that I'm wondering if he really knows it so well.
He should know they have a feedback procedure that allows anybody to write and report his comments in order to tune the system and, as I was told, this brought to kick somebody off the system who was not completely up to the standards.
I am happy heliski22 is also giving credit to these guys.
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about italians..
Italians waving hands... cravat.. 200 hours of multicrew in a R22...
I did have a good experience at AWTA, nothing to blame.
Italians wave hands, it is a habit ; somebody else has habit of killing imself with alchool every weekend.... So what??
In my opinion there is nothing else than pro-pilot and no pro-pilot, despite their culture and origin.
Epiphany ,You don't really know what you are talking about.
I did have a good experience at AWTA, nothing to blame.
Italians wave hands, it is a habit ; somebody else has habit of killing imself with alchool every weekend.... So what??
In my opinion there is nothing else than pro-pilot and no pro-pilot, despite their culture and origin.
Epiphany ,You don't really know what you are talking about.
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I only comment of subjects that I have direct experience of and in this case I know exactly what I am talking about. I do not expect everyone to agree with me but I also know that sometimes the truth hurts.
I have received some poisonous personal messages by those too spineless or lacking in English language skills, or intimately involved with the AW training system to post them here.
Don't bother to send anymore.
I have received some poisonous personal messages by those too spineless or lacking in English language skills, or intimately involved with the AW training system to post them here.
Don't bother to send anymore.