Weststar 139 tail incident 30th June 2011?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 66
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know of a very experienced (high time AW139 - more than 1500 hours on type alone) Check & Training Pilot who looked at a job with this company but of course they were paying peanuts.....so.....you know the rest!!!! It would seem that companies invest in aircraft but as always cut short on investing in training. If the company had booked training slots when they signed the purchase order, of course they would be accomodated at the Agusta training facility....its a matter of negotiation and planning, and acquiring experience. This type of helicopter has a habit of biting those who dont have experience or respect for its design characteristics, especially the tail low attitude. Its made me sit up and pay attention after operating other aircraft types. Nevertheless a powerful beast that is a pleasure to fly.....I have no issue with flying it. When Bristow and CHC have a few with tail problems only then will I sit up and take notice!!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Florida/Sandbox/UK
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gnz
gnz - yes it is fitted with an OEI Training switch. Its an excellent system, very realistic during the "fail" selection. Tq is limited on both engines when the switch is in use, if RRPM reduces to 87% or if either engine has a problem then the system will switch itself off.
TM
TM
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: OMAD
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks hihover,
I guess the Tq limitation in training mode is conservative.
Is the "supposed" maneuver (Helipad sim OEI landing), recoverable with 87% RRPM, in case of mishandling?
What's the automatic engine rating for the "wake up" engine?
I guess the Tq limitation in training mode is conservative.
Is the "supposed" maneuver (Helipad sim OEI landing), recoverable with 87% RRPM, in case of mishandling?
What's the automatic engine rating for the "wake up" engine?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Florida/Sandbox/UK
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gnz
Yes, it is easily recoverable, if the exercise is set up properly (AUM limits, safe trg area, take off brief etc etc). But remember, it still has to be flown out of the situation into which you put the aircraft. The system only detects adverse conditions and switches off the OEI Trg mode. Reversion is instantaneous, but you still have to fly it, either onto the ground or away from the ground. Bear in mind that - if the RRPM is drooping, an instant reversion to AEO will give you more power, but you will still have to recover RRPM in the normal manner.
Not sure what you mean in the last sentence. Both engines are running and sharing the load equally, only the indications on one of the displays is showing a failed engine, the other display shows actual engine outputs.
Hope this helps clarify.
TM
Yes, it is easily recoverable, if the exercise is set up properly (AUM limits, safe trg area, take off brief etc etc). But remember, it still has to be flown out of the situation into which you put the aircraft. The system only detects adverse conditions and switches off the OEI Trg mode. Reversion is instantaneous, but you still have to fly it, either onto the ground or away from the ground. Bear in mind that - if the RRPM is drooping, an instant reversion to AEO will give you more power, but you will still have to recover RRPM in the normal manner.
Not sure what you mean in the last sentence. Both engines are running and sharing the load equally, only the indications on one of the displays is showing a failed engine, the other display shows actual engine outputs.
Hope this helps clarify.
TM
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Out there somewhere
Posts: 353
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OEI training mode is disabled if;
NR drops below 87%, either engine flames out, either engine enters manual mode, an EEC problem, either engine mode selector is not in the flight position, or the Torque limiter is switched off.
NR drops below 87%, either engine flames out, either engine enters manual mode, an EEC problem, either engine mode selector is not in the flight position, or the Torque limiter is switched off.
gnz - there is no wake up engine, both engines are driving the rotor but with an artificial indication. The standard recovery with all FADEC training modes is surely - pull the lever!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
About a decade ago I started a new job and was given my first OPC/LPC on what was a new type for me, the Squirrel 'N'. The training captain worked out the weights for the engine failure part of the sortie but he inadvertantly used the real Perf A graph, not the training weights graph. So we were quite a bit (!) too heavy and it was a very hot day.
It was interesting when he gave me the first engine failure...
It was interesting when he gave me the first engine failure...
Part L of Supplement 12 for Cat A Operations (AW139 RFM) has some performance "information" in it that someone thought was less than important.
So does Supplement 12 Part C in its "Limitations" (applicable to only some of us apparently) section.
You can take a horse to water...
So does Supplement 12 Part C in its "Limitations" (applicable to only some of us apparently) section.
You can take a horse to water...
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South East Asia
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
".... had taken the proactice hands on approach...... But make no mistake...."
Nice one Shell Management (Post #42), yet another post to your usual sarcastic standard - but why did you wait until Page 3?
Nice one Shell Management (Post #42), yet another post to your usual sarcastic standard - but why did you wait until Page 3?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: OMAD
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all, that's clear now. Different philosophy than my EC' chopper : One engine Idled, ready to "wake up " with real OEI (hi or low, depending of the problem). But there's still the training perfs to comply with
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: South of the Border
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
the worlds only two available full-motion AW139 simulators
business opportunity
Turns out Gulf Helicopters have taken up that business opportunity. Their sim is now UK CAA and Qatar CAA approved.
the worlds only two available full-motion AW139 simulators
business opportunity
Turns out Gulf Helicopters have taken up that business opportunity. Their sim is now UK CAA and Qatar CAA approved.
Last edited by Hueybluey; 3rd Jul 2011 at 23:15. Reason: more info added
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Europe trying to enjoy retirement “YES”
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes so I understand, no type training credits from the local authority. So GH still have the 10 or 5 hr exposure on the aircraft, plus any sim they may decide to do above the minimum hrs. It is IR rated so 3 hrs sim available of the 5 hr course. On an up the skill test for type rating and the IR skill test can be done in the sim.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Rome (Italy)
Age: 78
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Waiting for....
I'm Antonio G., and my total time on 139 is 2,400 hours (training, worldwide demos, operations in every kind of enviroments, and so on). Many many 139's pilots have been trained by my hands. I'm here asking myself: why don't we wait for evidences from FDR and CVR instead of talking and talking? Thank you.
Antongervax: First - welcome to Pprune. Let me introduce you to the way things are done on this particular forum "rotorheads":
We practice the art of "ppruning", which delicately put, means we discuss / dismember / research / opine / comment...all things to do with the professional world of rotary aviation.
You may discover (if you stay here long eneough) that the place is littered with some of the best people this industry has to offer. They are: global/experienced/wise.
The forum is (relatively) free from hinderance from the moderators, who in themselves are 'experts' in their own field, also.
The beauty of this site is that everyone can have a say and 'second guess' what happened. It's purely a reflection of what you would discover in virtually every crewroom/office/airbase in the world.....ENJOY, my friend
We practice the art of "ppruning", which delicately put, means we discuss / dismember / research / opine / comment...all things to do with the professional world of rotary aviation.
You may discover (if you stay here long eneough) that the place is littered with some of the best people this industry has to offer. They are: global/experienced/wise.
The forum is (relatively) free from hinderance from the moderators, who in themselves are 'experts' in their own field, also.
The beauty of this site is that everyone can have a say and 'second guess' what happened. It's purely a reflection of what you would discover in virtually every crewroom/office/airbase in the world.....ENJOY, my friend
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Beside the seaside
Posts: 670
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TC, this person is well known to many AW139 pilots. Note that he begins by telling everyone how good he is.
Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to have received training from Italian AW training pilots will know their modus operandi very well - they strut into the briefing room (inevitably late - with no apology) wearing a nice blue flying suit with a pretty cravat, sneer at you, point to the helicopter and say 'Lets go'.
If you ask for a pre-flight brief you get an even bigger sneer. Then during the flight when you have absolutely no idea what is happening due to the fact that you have not received a pre-flight brief they start to shout at you, wave their hands around a lot and swear in Italian. Net result is that you learn sweet FA. After landing (when they think that have proved beyond doubt that they are God's gift to aviation) they make sure that their nice blue flying suits and cravats are not creased and dismiss you with a sneer and a wave of the hand. No post flight brief - no nothing. A complete waste of time.
CRM? MCC? You must be joking. These people have no multi-crew experience apart from 200 hours in an R22 so have no idea about CRM. Most of them only have jobs because of the nepotism that is endemic at AW Italy. The sad thing is that operators are paying lots of money for this bull****. Rant over.
Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to have received training from Italian AW training pilots will know their modus operandi very well - they strut into the briefing room (inevitably late - with no apology) wearing a nice blue flying suit with a pretty cravat, sneer at you, point to the helicopter and say 'Lets go'.
If you ask for a pre-flight brief you get an even bigger sneer. Then during the flight when you have absolutely no idea what is happening due to the fact that you have not received a pre-flight brief they start to shout at you, wave their hands around a lot and swear in Italian. Net result is that you learn sweet FA. After landing (when they think that have proved beyond doubt that they are God's gift to aviation) they make sure that their nice blue flying suits and cravats are not creased and dismiss you with a sneer and a wave of the hand. No post flight brief - no nothing. A complete waste of time.
CRM? MCC? You must be joking. These people have no multi-crew experience apart from 200 hours in an R22 so have no idea about CRM. Most of them only have jobs because of the nepotism that is endemic at AW Italy. The sad thing is that operators are paying lots of money for this bull****. Rant over.