Jet a1 vs kerosene 28sec
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I suppose that would only apply if the accident was fuel related. Clearly if an accident was cfit for example, and the engine was running perfectly, then surely it would not be a factor.
One of my engineers tells me three of his gazelles and two of his allouettes have been running on heating oil for years with no problems.
One of my engineers tells me three of his gazelles and two of his allouettes have been running on heating oil for years with no problems.
Insurance companies are in it for the money and they obviously hate expensive aircraft accidents. If you think they don't go over AAIB reports with a fine tooth comb looking for a let-out, think again. Using aircraft fuel from an unauthorised/unapproved source would be manna from heaven; irrespective of whether the fuel was actually good or otherwise. N.b. the accident I referred to above was not fuel related; it was a mechanical issue.
When the chips are down, it can be down to the individual, or even worse, the deceased relatives, to argue the toss, or at least to get an expensive lawyer involved to sort it out. I'd rather not put my family in that position, if the worst ever came to pass, but each to his own.
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nellycopter - An MSDS sheet, with the description "synonyms"... pointing out other words that are interchangeable for Jet-A1... is not the same as defined ASTM refining standards.
ASTM D396 - refining standard for heating oils... http://westcoastcollaborative.org/fi...0Standards.pdf
ASTM D1655 - refining standard for Jet-A1... Astm d1655
There are differences in how these fuels are tested, with some tests that apply to one fuel, not being applied to the other. Typical is that heating oil is only tested for pour point (lowest temperature at which the product will flow), as compared to Jet-A1 being subject to a freezing point test.
Note that pour point for heating oil is around -6°C, the freezing point for Jet-A1, is -45.6°C.
ASTM D396 - refining standard for heating oils... http://westcoastcollaborative.org/fi...0Standards.pdf
ASTM D1655 - refining standard for Jet-A1... Astm d1655
There are differences in how these fuels are tested, with some tests that apply to one fuel, not being applied to the other. Typical is that heating oil is only tested for pour point (lowest temperature at which the product will flow), as compared to Jet-A1 being subject to a freezing point test.
Note that pour point for heating oil is around -6°C, the freezing point for Jet-A1, is -45.6°C.
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Kerosine/ paraffin / 28sec. heating-oil is apparently all the same stuff (leastwise, on the UK DOMESTIC market.
I was informed that "premium paraffin" was ordinary Kero. that had been re-refined to remove traces of lube-oil,petrol and other sundry distillates.
Thus , (for us oldies) Aladdin pink, Regent Green and Esso Blue all burnt with a very low odour in paraffin-heaters.
Try to run a diesel car on it and it will run fine until the fuel-pump siezes up through lack of lubricity in the fuel.
35 sec. heating-oil/red-diesel/gas-oil/road-diesel are all the same stuff as each other but they are basically "dirty" paraffin...so they lubricate the innards of pumps,valves and injectors and contain lubes, paraffin and petrol.
Sometimes the marketing men and profiteers will con you into believing that you must ONLY use product "X" -or you'll invalidate the warranty.
Rolls Royce cars- "use only RR363 brake-fluid" .....but USA legislation forced them to show that it was ordinary DOT3 brake fluid with a 50% price-hike.
Same situation with Citroen and Total LHM green hydraulic fluid (but hidden in the small print, it was OK to use auto-transmission fluid "in an emergency"
There's a hell of a difference in the risk-factors, Aviation V Motoring.
Everyone knows Aviators have big wallets and they all want a piece of the action
I think i'd pay the premium for peace of mind,as laybys are a bit scarce if you conk-out up there!
I was informed that "premium paraffin" was ordinary Kero. that had been re-refined to remove traces of lube-oil,petrol and other sundry distillates.
Thus , (for us oldies) Aladdin pink, Regent Green and Esso Blue all burnt with a very low odour in paraffin-heaters.
Try to run a diesel car on it and it will run fine until the fuel-pump siezes up through lack of lubricity in the fuel.
35 sec. heating-oil/red-diesel/gas-oil/road-diesel are all the same stuff as each other but they are basically "dirty" paraffin...so they lubricate the innards of pumps,valves and injectors and contain lubes, paraffin and petrol.
Sometimes the marketing men and profiteers will con you into believing that you must ONLY use product "X" -or you'll invalidate the warranty.
Rolls Royce cars- "use only RR363 brake-fluid" .....but USA legislation forced them to show that it was ordinary DOT3 brake fluid with a 50% price-hike.
Same situation with Citroen and Total LHM green hydraulic fluid (but hidden in the small print, it was OK to use auto-transmission fluid "in an emergency"
There's a hell of a difference in the risk-factors, Aviation V Motoring.
Everyone knows Aviators have big wallets and they all want a piece of the action
I think i'd pay the premium for peace of mind,as laybys are a bit scarce if you conk-out up there!
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"Are you sure that wasn't the time limit for use of Avgas, rather than engine life? We could use diesel in Alouettes for a specific number of hours within an overhaul period with a TOT of about 50C higher than with JetA1. As already stated, most Flight Manuals will list approved fuels and any limitations associated with their use: that would be the first 'port of call' for consideration of what fuel to use on your helicopter 
"
You could well be right.
40 years does not improve the memory, however while Avcat, Avtur or Avtag could be used fully interchangeable, use of diesel and certainly 'Petrol' of any type was a major limiting factor.
Memory say all 'Petrol's' have same high calorific value and it would give a high TOT.
But I will stick with the if Ivan is coming over the hill, use anything that is liquid and will burn.
john
"You could well be right.
40 years does not improve the memory, however while Avcat, Avtur or Avtag could be used fully interchangeable, use of diesel and certainly 'Petrol' of any type was a major limiting factor.
Memory say all 'Petrol's' have same high calorific value and it would give a high TOT.
But I will stick with the if Ivan is coming over the hill, use anything that is liquid and will burn.
john
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I had dinner tonight with a representative of one of the larger RR engine overhaulers in North America. I raised the question of operating these engines on unapproved fuels. He said," We see a lot of this. You'd be amazed at what the turbine wheels look like and probably would refuse to fly in a helicopter with an engine in this condition. They will run on many unapproved fuels but its not a good idea."
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As said earlier - if Ivan, Mad Bob or the like are charging in your general direction, I think it would be a very good idea, if it was the only option!
I don't believe anyone was proposing this for regular Part 135 ops, though as cited there are many legitimate scenarios where alternate fuel types need to be used and are workable, subject to approvals and limitations, as applicable.
Needless to say, not to be done by those who are not fully aware of what they are doing, and the consequences...
Last edited by birrddog; 17th May 2011 at 01:28.
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I was reading something about the nuts and bolts of turbine engines a while back and I seem to remember that the burner needed the correct fuel to ensure that the actual flame did not come into contact with any physical part of the engine. Could tie up with the post above saying that turbine wheels had been damaged by using the wrong fuel.
Having said that I seem to remember that the PT6 in the Brittan Norman ag plane was in fact cleared to use ag diesel. I wonder though if the burners were designed for it, possibly at some cost in efficiency when using normal turbine fuels over that of burners optimised puerly for turbine fuels.
Having said that I seem to remember that the PT6 in the Brittan Norman ag plane was in fact cleared to use ag diesel. I wonder though if the burners were designed for it, possibly at some cost in efficiency when using normal turbine fuels over that of burners optimised puerly for turbine fuels.
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I was told a story about an operator who used off-road diesel in his ag plane with a Walter turboprop. When the hot section was overhauled the wheels and stators were ruined, at low time, from deposits and corrosion. The maintenance station was concerned the owner was going to balk at the repair cost, because of the additional parts required. Instead he calculated the operating savings using diesel over jet A and figured he was well ahead! I believe he is still using diesel to this day. Of course the disclaimer would be he was the sole operator of the single seat ag plane, so the risk was limited.
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Can someone give me a short course on the SEC numbers? Looking at the Exxon/Mobil charts the figures under Viscosity make no mention of SEC. In Nellycopters first post he said the manual states 50 SEC. Was he referring to the aircrafts manual? One of the other fuel distributors shows the Jet A-1 as SEC 28.
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Well ! At least I have given you lot somet to talk about !
It's the same
It's not the same
It's ok so long as you don't use a rusty old bucket to fill the aircraft
If you were being chased by the enemy then the thing will run on dog s**t.
In the Uk it all comes from the same tank, the tanker driver (although I don't think they would hold the correct qualification) adds what's needed for aviation.
The difference between 28sec and 50 sec is MONEY ! And TAX !
And when all said and done all I asked is -is it the same stuff ?
Think I will stick with the overpriced airfield heating oil, pumped from a 1940 rusty old leyland truck tank.
Cheers guys I really do like reading the 'banta,
Nelly.
It's the same
It's not the same
It's ok so long as you don't use a rusty old bucket to fill the aircraft
If you were being chased by the enemy then the thing will run on dog s**t.
In the Uk it all comes from the same tank, the tanker driver (although I don't think they would hold the correct qualification) adds what's needed for aviation.
The difference between 28sec and 50 sec is MONEY ! And TAX !
And when all said and done all I asked is -is it the same stuff ?
Think I will stick with the overpriced airfield heating oil, pumped from a 1940 rusty old leyland truck tank.
Cheers guys I really do like reading the 'banta,
Nelly.
Determination of the Viscosity of Oils - Redwood Viscometer.
Object
To determine the viscosity (in 'Redwood seconds') of a liquid hydrocarbon and also the effect of temperature on the viscosity. The viscosity of a hydrocarbon can be expressed as the number of seconds taken for the collection of 50ml. of the liquid when flowing under standard conditions through a jet of standard dimensions. The equipment specified is the Redwood Viscometer.
Apparatus
The viscometer consists of an oil cup furnished with a pointer, which ensures a constant head of oil, and an agate jet, which is drilled with a central hole. The upper end of the agate jet is closed with a ball, which is lifted to allow the flow of oil during the experiment. The outer jacket which is for maintaining the oil at a constant temperature, is electrically heated and normally contains water, though if a higher temperature is required, cylinder oil is used. The temperature is maintained at a uniform level by rotating the stirrer. A wire stirrer is also provided for mixing the oil samples.
Viscometer No.1 or No.2 is used depending on whether the time of flow of the oil at the desired temperature, is greater or less than 2000 seconds. The difference between the two viscometers is the diameter of the orifice.
Redwood No. 1 Capillary diameter.1.62 mm, length. 10.0 mm Redwood No. 2 Capillary diameter. 3.5 mm, length. 5.0 mm This means there is a factor of ten between the two viscometers, i.e. a liquid that takes 100 seconds to flow through a No1 viscometer will take
10 seconds in a No2 viscometer.
MethodThe sample of oil, filtered if necessary, is transferred to the container cup of the viscometer until the pointer just breaks the surface of the oil. It is most important that the test is always started with the pointer just emerging through the liquid surface. This ensures that the head of oil above the orifice is always the same and therefore that the pressure forcing the oil through is the same in each test using the same oil.
Whilst slowly rotating the jacket stirrer, the water in the jacket is heated to a temperature of 41°C. When the sample of oil in the cup reaches 40°C, the ball is lifted and at the same time a stop-watch is started. Allow oil to run through into the collecting flask until the 50 ml mark on the flask is reached, at which point the clock should be stopped and the ball pushed back onto the orifice to halt the oil flow.
The time taken for the passage of 50 ml of oil through the jet into the collecting flask, in seconds, should be noted.
Object
To determine the viscosity (in 'Redwood seconds') of a liquid hydrocarbon and also the effect of temperature on the viscosity. The viscosity of a hydrocarbon can be expressed as the number of seconds taken for the collection of 50ml. of the liquid when flowing under standard conditions through a jet of standard dimensions. The equipment specified is the Redwood Viscometer.
Apparatus
The viscometer consists of an oil cup furnished with a pointer, which ensures a constant head of oil, and an agate jet, which is drilled with a central hole. The upper end of the agate jet is closed with a ball, which is lifted to allow the flow of oil during the experiment. The outer jacket which is for maintaining the oil at a constant temperature, is electrically heated and normally contains water, though if a higher temperature is required, cylinder oil is used. The temperature is maintained at a uniform level by rotating the stirrer. A wire stirrer is also provided for mixing the oil samples.
Viscometer No.1 or No.2 is used depending on whether the time of flow of the oil at the desired temperature, is greater or less than 2000 seconds. The difference between the two viscometers is the diameter of the orifice.
Redwood No. 1 Capillary diameter.1.62 mm, length. 10.0 mm Redwood No. 2 Capillary diameter. 3.5 mm, length. 5.0 mm This means there is a factor of ten between the two viscometers, i.e. a liquid that takes 100 seconds to flow through a No1 viscometer will take
10 seconds in a No2 viscometer.
MethodThe sample of oil, filtered if necessary, is transferred to the container cup of the viscometer until the pointer just breaks the surface of the oil. It is most important that the test is always started with the pointer just emerging through the liquid surface. This ensures that the head of oil above the orifice is always the same and therefore that the pressure forcing the oil through is the same in each test using the same oil.
Whilst slowly rotating the jacket stirrer, the water in the jacket is heated to a temperature of 41°C. When the sample of oil in the cup reaches 40°C, the ball is lifted and at the same time a stop-watch is started. Allow oil to run through into the collecting flask until the 50 ml mark on the flask is reached, at which point the clock should be stopped and the ball pushed back onto the orifice to halt the oil flow.
The time taken for the passage of 50 ml of oil through the jet into the collecting flask, in seconds, should be noted.
Nelly , I just love the way you were shot down at the beginning of this thread by typical Pprune " experts" .... Don't worry some of them just have an inferiority complex . Funny that they keep their mouths shut when someone like Sasless comes to your rescue !!!!!! Like you I would be v keen to use 28 sec if I were certain of the facts ( I have only used it when landing at home on empty and put in 20 gal to get to airport ... No change in power/temps ). Let's hope we get definitive answer !!
Avoid imitations
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Look for the A109 flying at 140kn @ 50ft over the moor with a gun sticking out the window .... That might be me !!
Nigel is a successful businessman therefore rules don't apply to him and he is immune to the sort of human failings mere mortals suffer in aircraft.
Funny how many people who are talented in one area of their lives believe it just reads across to everything else, especially flying - see C McRae RIP and others for details.
Funny how many people who are talented in one area of their lives believe it just reads across to everything else, especially flying - see C McRae RIP and others for details.
Avoid imitations
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CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 1 Part 27 Page 6
Aviation fuel at aerodromes
217 (1) Subject to paragraph (3), an aviation fuel installation manager must not cause or permit any fuel to be delivered to the installation unless satisfied that:
(a) the installation is capable of storing and dispensing the fuel so as not to render it unfit for use in aircraft;
(b) the installation is marked in a manner appropriate to the grade of fuel stored or if different grades are stored in different parts each part is so marked; and
(c) in the case of delivery from a vehicle or vessel, the fuel has been sampled and is of a grade appropriate to that installation and is fit for use in aircraft.
(2) Subject to paragraph (3), an aviation fuel installation manager must not cause or permit any fuel to be dispensed from the installation to an aircraft unless satisfied as the result of sampling that the fuel is fit for use in aircraft.
(3) Paragraph (1) does not apply to fuel which has been removed from an aircraft and is intended for use in another aircraft operated by the same operator as the aircraft from which it has been removed.
(4) The aviation fuel installation manager must keep a written record for each installation of which they have the management, which record must include detailed information about:
(a) the grade and quantity of aviation fuel delivered and the date of delivery;
(b) all samples taken of the aviation fuel and of the results of tests of those samples;
and
(c) the maintenance and cleaning of the installation.
(5) The aviation fuel installation manager must:
(a) preserve the written record required under paragraph (4) for 12 months or such longer period as the CAA may in a particular case direct; and
(b) within a reasonable time after being requested to do so by an authorised person, produce such record to that person.
(6) A person must not cause or permit any aviation fuel to be dispensed for use in an aircraft if the person knows or has reason to believe that the aviation fuel is not fit for use in aircraft.
(7) If it appears to the CAA or an authorised person that any aviation fuel is intended or likely to be delivered in contravention of any provision of this article, the CAA or that authorised person may direct the aviation fuel installation manager not to permit aviation fuel to be dispensed from that installation until the direction has been revoked by the CAA or by an authorised person.
(8) In this article:
(a) 'an aviation fuel installation manager' means a person who has the management of any aviation fuel installation on an aerodrome in the United Kingdom;
(b) 'aviation fuel' means fuel intended for use in aircraft; and
(c) 'aviation fuel installation' means any apparatus or container, including a vehicle,
designed, manufactured or adapted for the storage of aviation fuel or for the
delivery of such fuel to an aircraft.
14 April
Section 1 Part 27 Page 6
Aviation fuel at aerodromes
217 (1) Subject to paragraph (3), an aviation fuel installation manager must not cause or permit any fuel to be delivered to the installation unless satisfied that:
(a) the installation is capable of storing and dispensing the fuel so as not to render it unfit for use in aircraft;
(b) the installation is marked in a manner appropriate to the grade of fuel stored or if different grades are stored in different parts each part is so marked; and
(c) in the case of delivery from a vehicle or vessel, the fuel has been sampled and is of a grade appropriate to that installation and is fit for use in aircraft.
(2) Subject to paragraph (3), an aviation fuel installation manager must not cause or permit any fuel to be dispensed from the installation to an aircraft unless satisfied as the result of sampling that the fuel is fit for use in aircraft.
(3) Paragraph (1) does not apply to fuel which has been removed from an aircraft and is intended for use in another aircraft operated by the same operator as the aircraft from which it has been removed.
(4) The aviation fuel installation manager must keep a written record for each installation of which they have the management, which record must include detailed information about:
(a) the grade and quantity of aviation fuel delivered and the date of delivery;
(b) all samples taken of the aviation fuel and of the results of tests of those samples;
and
(c) the maintenance and cleaning of the installation.
(5) The aviation fuel installation manager must:
(a) preserve the written record required under paragraph (4) for 12 months or such longer period as the CAA may in a particular case direct; and
(b) within a reasonable time after being requested to do so by an authorised person, produce such record to that person.
(6) A person must not cause or permit any aviation fuel to be dispensed for use in an aircraft if the person knows or has reason to believe that the aviation fuel is not fit for use in aircraft.
(7) If it appears to the CAA or an authorised person that any aviation fuel is intended or likely to be delivered in contravention of any provision of this article, the CAA or that authorised person may direct the aviation fuel installation manager not to permit aviation fuel to be dispensed from that installation until the direction has been revoked by the CAA or by an authorised person.
(8) In this article:
(a) 'an aviation fuel installation manager' means a person who has the management of any aviation fuel installation on an aerodrome in the United Kingdom;
(b) 'aviation fuel' means fuel intended for use in aircraft; and
(c) 'aviation fuel installation' means any apparatus or container, including a vehicle,
designed, manufactured or adapted for the storage of aviation fuel or for the
delivery of such fuel to an aircraft.
14 April
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ShyT
I think those rules only apply to licensed airfields and not to private sites.
I can't see how the use of heating oil in an aircraft turbine engine can fit in with the above rules.
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Read Def stan 91-91, this is the definitive standard for Jet A1 or nato spec F-35 which is one and the same. here is the link, hope its helpful. http://www.dstan.mod.uk/standards/de...1/00000700.pdf
cheers
cheers