Jet a1 vs kerosene 28sec
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Puntosaurus,
Looking at your profile, I'm surprised you are asking these questions, unless you are fishing for a bite. Insurance companies aren't in the charity business. .
Deliberately operating an aircraft outside the terms of the flight manual, by using an unapproved fuel? It's a no-brainer. If you are responsible for insuring an aircraft I politely suggest that you read the small print or ask the question.
Looking at your profile, I'm surprised you are asking these questions, unless you are fishing for a bite. Insurance companies aren't in the charity business. .
Deliberately operating an aircraft outside the terms of the flight manual, by using an unapproved fuel? It's a no-brainer. If you are responsible for insuring an aircraft I politely suggest that you read the small print or ask the question.
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I guess I was mildly fishing for a bite.
Many posts ago, someone asked the question can I use cheaper heating oil rather than Avtur. No-one really answered the question, although a lot of useful information emerged.
It turns out the answer is that the term Avtur covers a multitude of things, the physical spec, the provenance, the additives, and the way it's handled after you get it. Perhaps the most revealing post was the one from someone who had actually assayed heating oil, and in respect of the water content at least, had found it to be a better match for the spec of Avtur than Avtur itself, largely because of the greater turnover of heating oil.
I would say this issue isn't quite dead yet because no-one has taken it all the way and pushed an oil company to provide all the elements that would allow a user to classify heating oil as Avtur. But I am much better informed about what that would entail !
And whilst I admit to fishing slightly, you should ask yourself whether righteous indignation is appropriate. I have no doubt whatsoever that the price differential between Avtur and 28 sec heating oil is wildly unjustifiable in terms of the cost differential of managing it's provenance. It's a pure profitability issue rather than one of quality or safety.
Many posts ago, someone asked the question can I use cheaper heating oil rather than Avtur. No-one really answered the question, although a lot of useful information emerged.
It turns out the answer is that the term Avtur covers a multitude of things, the physical spec, the provenance, the additives, and the way it's handled after you get it. Perhaps the most revealing post was the one from someone who had actually assayed heating oil, and in respect of the water content at least, had found it to be a better match for the spec of Avtur than Avtur itself, largely because of the greater turnover of heating oil.
I would say this issue isn't quite dead yet because no-one has taken it all the way and pushed an oil company to provide all the elements that would allow a user to classify heating oil as Avtur. But I am much better informed about what that would entail !
And whilst I admit to fishing slightly, you should ask yourself whether righteous indignation is appropriate. I have no doubt whatsoever that the price differential between Avtur and 28 sec heating oil is wildly unjustifiable in terms of the cost differential of managing it's provenance. It's a pure profitability issue rather than one of quality or safety.
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you should ask yourself whether righteous indignation is appropriate.
In my opinion, "righteous indignation", if you prefer to call it that, is appropriate.
I'm happy to fly on any fuel that meets the required aviation standards for manufacture, storage and handling. If it doesn't then I'm not. Simple enough?
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That's precisely the point raised by the original poster - whether this is a genuine safety issue or a profitability issue.
Unanswerable I suspect, although I have my suspicions as you'll have gathered from my last post.
Nevertheless, since I don't own an aircraft I wouldn't dream of putting anything other than official juice in one that belongs to someone else. And even if I did own an aircraft, I'd do a lot more research before I took such a step.
Unanswerable I suspect, although I have my suspicions as you'll have gathered from my last post.
Nevertheless, since I don't own an aircraft I wouldn't dream of putting anything other than official juice in one that belongs to someone else. And even if I did own an aircraft, I'd do a lot more research before I took such a step.
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I would say this issue isn't quite dead yet because no-one has taken it all the way and pushed an oil company to provide all the elements that would allow a user to classify heating oil as Avtur. But I am much better informed about what that would entail !
you dont have to push anyone..its all there if you ask....
http://www.peakoil.co.uk/pdf/KEROSENE.pdf
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 22nd Aug 2011 at 21:55.
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That's a data safety sheet, not a spec. It's grouping together products which have a similar safety treatment.
The issue we're dealing with is whether these classifications are significant for engine operation, not dealing with spills.
The link in Post #67 is more relevant, although I wonder if there is a civilian spec which is more applicable and maybe less onerous on provenance.
The issue we're dealing with is whether these classifications are significant for engine operation, not dealing with spills.
The link in Post #67 is more relevant, although I wonder if there is a civilian spec which is more applicable and maybe less onerous on provenance.
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This fuel can be sold under and meets many different applications, and this kerosene also can meet specs for Aviation Jet Fuel A-1 (civilian)
Avtur, NATO F34, F35 (military), Regular Burning Oil (RBO), 28 Second Heating Oil
It is up to the individual supplier to quantify and meet or exceed the spec you want...
in regards to legal applications, it is the specification and the meet/exceeds that counts....
In developing countries like yours, bulk shipments of fuel always have multi-purpose uses.
Avtur, NATO F34, F35 (military), Regular Burning Oil (RBO), 28 Second Heating Oil
It is up to the individual supplier to quantify and meet or exceed the spec you want...
in regards to legal applications, it is the specification and the meet/exceeds that counts....
In developing countries like yours, bulk shipments of fuel always have multi-purpose uses.
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For all,
I only post here once in a while, but have been an avid reader for years.
At the risk of being forceful: Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who contemplates saving a couple of $,Pounds,Euros, Naira or Conch Shells from using home heating oil as a fuel, or skipping inspections, or overhauls or any other aspect of care and maintenance of their aircraft should immediately rip up any licence they may have the dubious distinction of holding, and promptly throw it in the trash with the Cracker Jacks box it came in and take up bicycle riding where, at worst you can only hurt yourself.
I find it hard to fathom that this discussion has gone on for 5 pages.
Like the tone of the Bell 206 TT Strap topic, it boggles my mind that after retirement times for components have been set based on previous LOSS OF LIVES that some figure it is all just a cash grab from the manufacturers.
Perhaps that is more a fuction of short memories or a lack of historical knowledge?
I am fully aware of the cost of helicopters and their operation. If it is such a surprise to some,again, perhaps they should take up some other "hobby"
End of rant.
Sincerely,
Rigidhead
I only post here once in a while, but have been an avid reader for years.
At the risk of being forceful: Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who contemplates saving a couple of $,Pounds,Euros, Naira or Conch Shells from using home heating oil as a fuel, or skipping inspections, or overhauls or any other aspect of care and maintenance of their aircraft should immediately rip up any licence they may have the dubious distinction of holding, and promptly throw it in the trash with the Cracker Jacks box it came in and take up bicycle riding where, at worst you can only hurt yourself.
I find it hard to fathom that this discussion has gone on for 5 pages.
Like the tone of the Bell 206 TT Strap topic, it boggles my mind that after retirement times for components have been set based on previous LOSS OF LIVES that some figure it is all just a cash grab from the manufacturers.
Perhaps that is more a fuction of short memories or a lack of historical knowledge?
I am fully aware of the cost of helicopters and their operation. If it is such a surprise to some,again, perhaps they should take up some other "hobby"
End of rant.
Sincerely,
Rigidhead
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Rigidhead, You put it so well 
Rigid, why speak in riddles? Say it how it is 
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Oh for goodness sake, get over yourselves. To quote from the Defstan
In other words this specification does not describe the content of the fuel, but rather how it performs. And therefore anything that performs in the same way (subject to the caveat about normal refining processes) meets the specification. So nobody is talking about putting something unauthorised in the tank, we are simply speculating about whether 28 sec heating oil meets the spec.
That is a legitimate question, and one which has not yet been answered.
Jet fuel is a complex mixture of hydrocarbons that varies depending on crude source and manufacturing process. Consequently, it is impossible to define the exact composition of jet fuel. This specification has therefore evolved primarily as a performance specification rather than a compositional specification. It is acknowledged that this largely relies on accumulated experience, therefore the specification limits jet fuels to those made from conventional sources or specifically approved synthetic processes.
That is a legitimate question, and one which has not yet been answered.
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So nobody is talking about putting something unauthorised in the tank, we are simply speculating about whether 28 sec heating oil meets the spec.
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well it gave us all something to talk about anyway.......
again ..... i did send a sample of both to our sampling lab labelled 'a' and 'b' so as not to give anything away,
as it says a bit further up in a post - the result came back with Jet a 1 (b) showing more water content but other than that the same as (a) heating oil....
it was just a simple question at the beginning, which as always on here blew up into sh*t storm........ i now have 1000gall heating oil on site to keep the house warm and a 500 gall bowser full of lovely Jet A1 ( with extra water content) for me nelly......
who really knows - what you lot are buying when you uplift from an airfield just because they have a piece of paper saying a particular delivery was certified jet a1, do you get a certificate of authenticity EVERY time you fill up ???
i think not /.......
take a sample and send it off - wouldnt your ar*e fall out if it came back as 28sec heating oil ???? ha ha...........
nelly ........
again ..... i did send a sample of both to our sampling lab labelled 'a' and 'b' so as not to give anything away,
as it says a bit further up in a post - the result came back with Jet a 1 (b) showing more water content but other than that the same as (a) heating oil....
it was just a simple question at the beginning, which as always on here blew up into sh*t storm........ i now have 1000gall heating oil on site to keep the house warm and a 500 gall bowser full of lovely Jet A1 ( with extra water content) for me nelly......
who really knows - what you lot are buying when you uplift from an airfield just because they have a piece of paper saying a particular delivery was certified jet a1, do you get a certificate of authenticity EVERY time you fill up ???
i think not /.......
take a sample and send it off - wouldnt your ar*e fall out if it came back as 28sec heating oil ???? ha ha...........
nelly ........
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jet A1 vs kerosene 28sec
Just browsing thro' and came across this website. Reading this particular topic under discussion is quite interesting as I was involved in offshore helicopter travel (as a passenger) and also heavily involved with offshore/onshore Operational Plant Process Integrity and Maintenance including design and installation of Jet A1 refueling facilities at various middle east airport locations. I am somewhat puzzled why one would willingly want to run a helicopter on kerosene 28sec fuel, with the perceived risk of engine damage or failure.
To ask a purely hypothetical question but in reverse - namely - can one run a home heating oil fired boiler on Jet A1 ?
To ask a purely hypothetical question but in reverse - namely - can one run a home heating oil fired boiler on Jet A1 ?
To ask a purely hypothetical question but in reverse - namely - can one run a home heating oil fired boiler on Jet A1 ?
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More importantly most of us know if it's from conaco humberside it's the same stuff ,but if you buy it as kerosene and your POH allows kerosene you can put it in , if your POH says you can only use jet A1 that's all you can use
My POH says JET A1 ,kerosene ,28second and a host of other fuels as alternatives ,some like avgas have ramifications to engine life but most are acceptable
My POH says JET A1 ,kerosene ,28second and a host of other fuels as alternatives ,some like avgas have ramifications to engine life but most are acceptable
We ran two Hughes 500E's, a Bell Jet Ranger L4, and a Cessna 208 using #1 Clear Diesel with no problems at all. We used a good filter system with a water blocking filter and flew thousands of hours and saw no difference in inspections or performance. We did see a great reduction in both cost and avaibility.