Jet a1 vs kerosene 28sec

[nellycopter]

What is the difference ?
It would seem they run turbine helicopters on this in africa,
And someone made a comment that it all comes fro the same pipe !
What I really need to know is it it really the same ?
Will a turbine run on it ? If not why not ?
And how come it seems to work in other Countries if not ours ?

Manual says kerosene 50 sec, among lots of other specs.....

Anyone clued up on this .

Many thanks

Nelly

[nellycopter]

It's not my trade!
The machine is a toy !

[nellycopter]

Ok so lots of number and pretty tables,
Does anyone have a straight answer by pm ? Please ?

[[email protected]]

Is it a toy as in model heli or toy as in big boys and a real one?

The 28 vs 50 sec is a measure of viscosity so 50 sec would be thick and gloopy compared to 28 sec.

The short answer is that you can run a turbine on all sorts of fuel but what it does to the engine can range from sooting it up, corroding it, leaving gummy deposits, failing to lubricate key parts of the fuel control system, burning too hot etc etc. Put in the best fuel you can would seem to be a sensible dogma, especially if your life is going to depend on that engine running well.

PS, just seen from another thread that you have bought a well looked after EC120 - put Jet A-1 in it, if you can afford a 120 you can afford proper fuel

[nellycopter]

Hi crab,

I can afford the real fuel,
I am looking for a bowser for home and someone (fellow pilot) said you already have 1000gall of kerosene on site for your heating ! Use that !
So I was just wanting clarification that's all !

I wouldn't risk putting it in unless I could obtain further info that it would be ok !

See your point, back to looking for another bowser then.

Cheers

[nessboy]

Way up north here both come from the same storage tank.

[206 jock]

Ex-military machines are usually set up to run on a wide variety of fuel types. The Wasp would run on just about anything they could find in the field.

Don't think your 'fellow pilot' was doing you much of a favour. It wouldn't even occur to me to run my machine on heating oil. If you're tempted by a site bowser and running your machine on heating oil...remind me never to buy your machine when you're done with it.

My bowser has water traps and filters to make sure that the fuel that comes out of the end is reliable. My central heating tank has none of these

[Peter-RB]

Nellycopter,

Please dont take this in the wrong vane, but I am staggered at your total lack of ability to know the answers to fuel types needed to run your turbine, the question you indicate, is that your pal said you could use heating oil, why do you think its called heating oil, it is full of things that would cause you great problems if airborne with it, you would not use that in a Ferguson Tractor, and you are supposed to be talking about fueling a Turbine heli,

Like the previous posters have said, you need that very complex turbine to create a lot of power to keep your un-informed backside in the air, shortcut fuel quality and we will be reading about you in the Redtops.

Correct fuel.
Enough to do the trip,
enough to divert
ensure daily test before flying,
always purchase away fuel from a reliable source
Keep records and samples
Dont use single skin tanks
dont use Mild steel pipe's
check Static tank Filter very often
Unless using floating suction pick up dont refuel after delivery's for at least 8 hours.

simple pain in the ares rules that will keep you breathing, you cannot be too cautious with any fuel(s).

Fly Safe, land safer.

Peter R-B

[nellycopter]

Ok I think I get the drift here,
I asked what I thought was a sensible question.
Heating oil is kerosene 28sec
Turbine fuel is KEROSENE 50 sec

I didn't intend filling the tank with a rusty old bucket,
And the guy further up is not the first to say that heating oil and jet a1 comes from the same tanks at the fuel storage depot !
If you must know my pilot mate is pilot part time and tanker driver day job and he assures me he know what he is delivering to airfields where you lot, and me now fill our aircraft !
And there have been occasions when he has delivered to an airfield and then 500 gall to a farm for heating oil ! Out of the same tank on the same truck !
Before someone says trucks have separate tanks within them !
I am sure the tanker driver knows his job !
I am only telling you what he has told me !
And thought this forum may be a good place to obtain confirmation.

So let's leave it there and all continue to fill up at the airfield with what we assume is jet a1, when in fact it could just be heating oil KEROSENE 28sec.

[[email protected]]

Ultimately Nellycopter, your mate is right - it is all kerosene and there probably is no difference between what goes in your heating tank and what goes in your aircraft.

The only issues are storage, handling and pre-use checks so a proper bowser would be a far better option than sucking it out of your heating tank.

[nellycopter]

Now that I have heard all these horror stories I think I will just go to the airfield and buy their heating oil !
I would have spent the time effort and money setting up the correct filtration and water traps but won't bother now ! As can't get anyone to confirm for fact that it is actually the same stuff !

[EN48]

when in fact it could just be heating oil KEROSENE 28sec.

Not likely. Jet A and I assume other jet aircraft fuels often contain additives which I doubt are in kerosene or heating oil. One of these is an antimicrobial agent to prevent flora from sprouting in your fuel system - a very expensive proposition and a possible safety hazard. Another is an anti icing agent (Prist is a common brand name); some helicopters require this and others do not so it is often added as the acft is fueled. There may be others as well. Life is complicated - go with it!

[welsh_Gareth]

i may sound silly here but how do you know your friend didn't deliver Turbine fuel to the air field and farm? im sure the oil burner wouldnt be fussy with that it has. im guessing that the turbine fuel would be more expensive to produce so why would the fuel depo deliver this to the farm, but maybe the tanking costs outweighed the additional costs of the turbine fuel?

[EN48]

that's really the sort of answer you ought to expect when you ask this sort of question.

Umm...,

Thanks for posting these links - a most useful education!

[onetrack]

The simple answer is that kerosene and JetA1 are refined to different fuel standards. The refining standards are set by the ASTM in the U.S., and by other local fuel standard agencies in other countries.

Aeronautical fuels such as JetA1 have very important additives to prevent fuel or engine problems that can develop under aviation operating conditions.
These additives are typically (but not limited to)... rust preventatives, anti-foaming additives, anti-bacterial additives, anti-icing additives, lubricity improvers...

In addition, refining standards and handling procedures, are much tighter for aviation fuels, than for common ground-use fuels. Standards for contamination in both refining and handling, are very much lower for aviation fuels.

Regular Kerosene and heating oils never leave the ground, and any problems with contamination and lack of additives in these fuels, in their designed use areas, doesn't rate a mention.

However, indulging in flying, using these ground-based fuels, could leave you wishing you had used the fuel specifically recommended by the manufacturer of your aircraft... particularly when the ground is rushing up to meet you at an alarming rate... as result of using a grade of fuel not designed, or refined, for aviation use.

[outhouse]

Discussion on fuel use away from approved type and specification is fine, actual use is not in my view.
I won't go into problems that result, from using various crap options from loss of power, inability to achieve needed NG, needed adjustment to fuel flow devices and the problems that occur, inability to achieve power margins and damage to the engine mainly found by the poor sod flying the machine after the event.*
If you can't afford it or don't have it don't fill up.*
Any one having experience a total engine failure caused by crap fuel use will confirm.

[EN48]

Any one having experience a total engine failure caused by crap fuel use will confirm

And after the accident, the CAA/FAA/etc, your insurance company and the plaintiff's attorneys will have a field day.

[[email protected]]

Um..lifting's link to the exxon site highlights that jet A1 doesn't contain Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) as specified in Brit Mil standards for F34 which we put in our aircraft by choice.

It doesn't matter if we refuel at a civvy site and take Jet A1 but we have to log it. Since Jet A has a freeze point of minus 40 deg C and Jet A-1 is minus 47, I don't suppose it is much of an issue for most helicopter operators, except in the Arctic circle.

It would be interesting to get a definitive answer to your question Nellycopter - we might all be surprised

[Gordy]

Crab:

Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) as specified in Brit Mil standards for F34 which we put in our aircraft by choice.

Just out of interest....why? I did not think you operate in the arctic.

I am told to not use it unless needed as it causes some issues sitting in the tank---not sure what and my DOM is off today, but will attempt to find out.

[EN48]

Just out of interest....why?

Question not directed to me but I'll provide an answer to a slightly different question: because the RFM "requires" it for all operations. In the case of my E480B, the certification testing was done with fuel that contained Prist, so even though most agree that it is not necessary, the FAA says you must have Prist (or equivalent). RFM also requires an antimicrobial agent.