Jet a1 vs kerosene 28sec
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I stand to be flamed or to be corrected...
When I did some flying in remote areas in Southern Africa (B407) I was told in a pinch (read emergency situation) that I could use diesel, though this needed to be logged and the TBO for the engine would be reduced by 25%, I believe this is in the maintenance manual, though fortunately i never had to confirm.
When I did some flying in remote areas in Southern Africa (B407) I was told in a pinch (read emergency situation) that I could use diesel, though this needed to be logged and the TBO for the engine would be reduced by 25%, I believe this is in the maintenance manual, though fortunately i never had to confirm.
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I was told in a pinch (read emergency situation) that I could use diesel
Gordy - the short answer is because it is a mil standard suitable for use in any mil aircraft anywhere in the world.
The FSII also has anti-bacterial properties which helps fight fungal growth in the fuel. I don't know if it is a separation issue if it sits in the tank too long but that isn't usually an issue for us - it may be a corrosion factor in a steel tank, ours are rubber.
The FSII also has anti-bacterial properties which helps fight fungal growth in the fuel. I don't know if it is a separation issue if it sits in the tank too long but that isn't usually an issue for us - it may be a corrosion factor in a steel tank, ours are rubber.
Crab
Got it....over here most places give you the option of having it added. It is added at the nozzle and normally costs more. The anti-bacterial qualities are what I believe cause some problems---but again not sure exactly what, but will find out tomorrow.
Got it....over here most places give you the option of having it added. It is added at the nozzle and normally costs more. The anti-bacterial qualities are what I believe cause some problems---but again not sure exactly what, but will find out tomorrow.
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in the "old" days in the military we could run on a 20/80 petrol/diesel mix perfectly ok in a lack of proper fuel situation. BUT it would soot up the wheels a lot quicker and thus, due to maintenance, it was only in emergency.
use the correct fuel
use the correct fuel
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According to Conoco Philips....
Product Name: Aviation Kerosene
Synonyms: Aviation Jet Fuel A-1 (civilian)
...............Avtur
...............NATO F34, F35 (military)
...............Regular Burning Oil (RBO)
...............28 Second Heating Oil
Safety Data Sheet Number: 814650
Intended Use: Aviation Turbine Fuel
Manufacturer: ConocoPhillips Ltd, Humber Refinery
South Killingholme, North Lincolnshire DN40 3DW
http://apollofuels.co.uk/p7spepper/img/kero_msds.pdf
Product Name: Aviation Kerosene
Synonyms: Aviation Jet Fuel A-1 (civilian)
...............Avtur
...............NATO F34, F35 (military)
...............Regular Burning Oil (RBO)
...............28 Second Heating Oil
Safety Data Sheet Number: 814650
Intended Use: Aviation Turbine Fuel
Manufacturer: ConocoPhillips Ltd, Humber Refinery
South Killingholme, North Lincolnshire DN40 3DW
http://apollofuels.co.uk/p7spepper/img/kero_msds.pdf
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From the RR 250-C47B (B407) Operation and Maintenance Manual (Sep 09): Fuel Specifications
"(2) Emergency
Operation on ASTM D-910 AVGAS, all grades, is permitted for a maximum of six hours for each turbine overhaul period if aircraft boost pumps are available and turned on."
No mention of diesel or other non aviation fuels. Avgas containg TCP is not permitted. Likely would run on diesel but would probably become unairworthy from a regulatory standpoint if done, requiring at least an inspection and possibly an overhaul (not to mention possible liability issues). So if its REALLY an emergency, might be worth it!
"(2) Emergency
Operation on ASTM D-910 AVGAS, all grades, is permitted for a maximum of six hours for each turbine overhaul period if aircraft boost pumps are available and turned on."
No mention of diesel or other non aviation fuels. Avgas containg TCP is not permitted. Likely would run on diesel but would probably become unairworthy from a regulatory standpoint if done, requiring at least an inspection and possibly an overhaul (not to mention possible liability issues). So if its REALLY an emergency, might be worth it!
Last edited by EN48; 15th May 2011 at 22:49.
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it may be a corrosion factor in a steel tank, ours are rubber.
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It is added at the nozzle and normally costs more.
Avoid imitations
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The way to find out what (if any) maintenance penalty is incurred by using a different fuel from the normally available type is to read the Fight Manual.
The requirements for different aircraft/engine installations can vary. Putting forward a "one size fits all" answer is incorrect.
However, if the fuel type in question doesn't appear in the aircraft documentation then don't try to use it.
The requirements for different aircraft/engine installations can vary. Putting forward a "one size fits all" answer is incorrect.
However, if the fuel type in question doesn't appear in the aircraft documentation then don't try to use it.
We ran a Jet Ranger, Long Ranger, and three MD-500 E's on #1 Clear Diesel for years without any problems what so ever.
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The recommended fuel is used for a reason.
Simply it's the Best for the engine.
Emergency use of 'Anything' that is liquid and will burn was only for when Ivan was coming over the horizon and now't else was available.
As was mentioned the Wasp could be run on 'Anything' but life of the primative donkey was shortened drastically, down to about 10 Hrs if Avgas was used.
john
Simply it's the Best for the engine.
Emergency use of 'Anything' that is liquid and will burn was only for when Ivan was coming over the horizon and now't else was available.
As was mentioned the Wasp could be run on 'Anything' but life of the primative donkey was shortened drastically, down to about 10 Hrs if Avgas was used.
john
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We ran a Jet Ranger, Long Ranger, and three MD-500 E's on #1 Clear Diesel for years without any problems what so ever.
No doubt these turbine engines will run on other types of fuels but the use of such fuels would seem to violate regulations, void warranties, create liabilities, etc. (Civil acft only - military make their own rules)
Last edited by EN48; 16th May 2011 at 01:37.
Chief Bottle Washer
The recommended fuel is used for a reason.
Simply it's the Best for the engine.
Emergency use of 'Anything' that is liquid and will burn was only for when Ivan was coming over the horizon and now't else was available.
As was mentioned the Wasp could be run on 'Anything' but life of the primative donkey was shortened drastically, down to about 10 Hrs if Avgas was used.
john
Simply it's the Best for the engine.
Emergency use of 'Anything' that is liquid and will burn was only for when Ivan was coming over the horizon and now't else was available.
As was mentioned the Wasp could be run on 'Anything' but life of the primative donkey was shortened drastically, down to about 10 Hrs if Avgas was used.
john
Are you sure that wasn't the time limit for use of Avgas, rather than engine life? We could use diesel in Alouettes for a specific number of hours within an overhaul period with a TOT of about 50C higher than with JetA1. As already stated, most Flight Manuals will list approved fuels and any limitations associated with their use: that would be the first 'port of call' for consideration of what fuel to use on your helicopter
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Let's say you operate a western engine in the former Soviet bloc
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Thread Starter
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Flightpath has clearly pointed out that it is actually the same fuel produced at the refinery yet no-one has made comment ?
Has he added the 28 sec in red, or highlighted it ?
Still not going to use it , but the question I asked has defiantly given a good debate !
Has he added the 28 sec in red, or highlighted it ?
Still not going to use it , but the question I asked has defiantly given a good debate !
Pratt & Whitney Safety Bulletin PT6T-72-5144 allows for "Automotive Diesel Fuel (Regular Grade)" to be used without penalty. With this limitation: "Shall not be used below +40 °F (+5 °C) ground OAT"
We often use Diesel as an alternate fuel in our B412's.
We often use Diesel as an alternate fuel in our B412's.
Avoid imitations
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Flightpath has clearly pointed out that it is actually the same fuel produced at the refinery yet no-one has made comment ?
Similar argument/ discussions go on about the pros and cons of the use of MOGAS in aircraft piston engines.
One good piece of aviation advice given to me many years ago: "Think what the Board of Inquiry might have to say about it". These days I would also add a rider: "And the insurance company".
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ShyT,
I suppose that would only apply if the accident was fuel related. Clearly if an accident was cfit for example, and the engine was running perfectly, then surely it would not be a factor.
One of my engineers tells me three of his gazelles and two of his allouettes have been running on heating oil for years with no problems.
One good piece of aviation advice given to me many years ago: "Think what the Board of Inquiry might have to say about it". These days I would also add a rider: "And the insurance company".
One of my engineers tells me three of his gazelles and two of his allouettes have been running on heating oil for years with no problems.