Helififtysix

So I am looking to see if anybody flew G-LRII a 206 Long ranger back in the 80's, when it was working for TAL-AIR?

I know it ended up going back to the US after its time here but it would be great to find out more about G-LRII while it was here in England.

Many thanks in advance

P.S I have picture of it when it had mainly a white body and light and dark blue strips if that helps

DennisK

Hi 'S' .... just to answer your queries ... The G-BALT piccy of the F28A was indeed the machine I learned on circa 1973 with Bill (Norman) Bailey DFM. That's obviously the Norman Senior. Bill was contracted to Spooner Aviation at Shoreham to run our Enstrom flying school - mainly for Enstrom purchasers since part of the deal for sales was the purchase price included the cost of the PPL. She was £22,500 new in those days and how well I recall my quirky sales advert of an Enstrom sailing above an M1 traffic jam with the caption ... "Aren't you above all that.' It sure worked 'cos I sold 138 Enstroms from 1973 to 1982 when I left Shoreham to start my company, Skyline Helicopters at Booker. I remember your visit with Col Bob about 1983 was it?

In the early 1972 I held a fixed wing ATPL (being ex service) so all I needed in those days was 300 hours rotary, then 1200 hours for the ATPL(H). No exams at all but there was a CPL flight test which was done with Don Sissons at Redhill. (another 1970s name.) My first attempt at a full stop EOL missed the training square target so Don allowed me a second go. I missed again to which he said "Is this type a difficult machine to autorotate?" Knowing he had zilch hours on type I suggested he had a go when he promply plonked the bloody thing down absolutely dead centre. But he passed me. The PPL (H) course then was 35 hours for a CAA approved school so 30 hours for a fixed wing licence holder.

I got my CPL by flying the 300 hours on the Enstrom in my ten months ... entirely sales demonstrations. Spoonair then had an 'Approved Operations Manual' to carry out public transport work. (no AOCs then!) A Spoonair subsidiary was 'Air Taxis International' and if you see pictures of Enstrom 280, G-BENO you will see the ATI logo and word print on both doors. Log book check shows my first public transport flight was to Battersea in Feb 1974 on Bell 206, G-BBEG.

Here's a final quirk. About 1974 or 75, I found myself sitting in the Shoreham clubroom one Sunday afternoon but it may have been a Saturday. I suddenly remarked to one of the pilots, Its Grand Prix day at Silverstone so why don't we fly up and watch the race. We jumped into the Enstrom and 45 mins later landed in the centre of Silverstone where we met Pat Moss on her little two seat Bolkow fixed wing. No pre-arrival clearance, no PPR, we just went and watched and didn't even get charged admission!!!! Not even sure if there was a Silverstone radio then.

Last time I flew in professionally would have been 1993 when after a squillion holding orbits at the horse racing track, I was told by Dave Ward .. you're number seventeen to land. Happy days!

DennisK

Oh ... I forgot. In the 1970s Spoonair used the Enstrom 28C fitted out as an Ag machine ... Spoonair Ag Services. I flew for Plant Protection (ICI) for the first year until we called in specialist Ag pilots from New Zealand. By then we had three Ag helis, G-BBBR, G-BCOT and .... (my memory has failed me) I still have the sales movie I made 'tho, (no videos in those days) of G-BBBR on chemical calibration and demonstration flying at Shoreham Airport and the nearby Harris Farm of 1,000 acres where I must have dumped a ton of Nitram for fetilizer and Maneb for the spuds. But we did sell an Ag Enstrom to Turkey and three to Greece. Also used the machine for Dry application using the Agrinautics 3600 gear and a Vicon Hopper (Even pinched some for my lawn at home and never stopped mowing three times a week for the rest of the year!)For a while we tried the ULV and CDA systems (one pint an acre) but never found a single customer.

Our Chief Ag Pilot was the venerable Bishop Bill Izzard, (Ex B-Cal S-61 G-LINK - LHR-LGW) ... also those two wonderful New Zealanders, Dave Cook and Derek Alexander. Anyone know of Dave C (Derek is sadly RIP) We used to spray at £4 an acre then and I often managed 100 acres an hour. Good money but we were also competing with David Dollar, Heli-Scott oop North and more than a few others.

Call for more 1970s trivia anytime ... Dennis Kenyon.

vfr440

Dennis, I remember the '70s spraying days only too well. I was 'oop-North' with Heli-Scot and 2 x Hiller 12Es, and in addition to yourself, $$ and others (especially Management Avn, subsequently Bond) who were extreme competition especially in the Borders area. Lucky you to get £4/acre - those Scottish farmers wouldn't go a half-penny above £3.50 However there were two unfailing benefits to the work, the Scottish falling-down water, and the Azulex (Azulam?) spraying for bracken at the end of August. Pure unbridled legal low flying and the chemical absolutely NOT toxic. As opposed to some of the other stuff with an organo-phospherous content - nerve gas to those who are unfamiliar with the product!!

However, it was hard work. Flying super early (at first light) before the wind got up, IF all was OK. But the trials and tribulations of having the support crew and truck at teh same location (no Sat Navs then!!), then the spray gear would go U/S; or the helicopter would. Or both and the wind would turn to a howling rainstorm. I've been on Rannoch Moor, abandoned by everybody, with stair-rods for rain (and Hiller doors don't keep much rain out either I discovered) and the final absurdity, of a seagull blown in from the West Coast, that landed on, and put its beak under its wing and quit flying for the day. What ever did we think we could achieve?

Now you understand the fondness for the Scottish falling-down water. One final remembered moment. West Coast of Scotland, somewhere South of Oban on a rainy day in May or June. We pitch up for the night at a very definitely up-market Country/Golf club establishement. Tie the machine down and enter the foyer, "When does the bar close?" I ask. "End of October" was the reply...........!

More Fred Slippage there but it IS nostalgia, and sadly those of today do not have the opportunities to enjoy (?) such frivolity. Safe flying, ~ VFR

Earl of Rochester

There are very few images available online of G-LRII, in fact the only two I could find were, 1) via NA3T at RGS Group of Companies ? G-LRII | TransportPhotos.com and which needs a scan request and 2) via MAR at Military Aviation Review available as a purchase at a cost of £1!

The aircraft's history seems to have been:

May 1979: Delivered to CSE
August 1979: Deliveed to Castle Air
1986: Carroll Industries/Aircraft
1991: Air Hanson (prior to re-sale back to the US)

I'm assuming that Carroll Industries/Aircraft (London and Farnborough) must have been the holding company for Tal-Air?

Either way, LRII must have been one of the first LongRangers in the country preceeded from what I can tell by G-BFAL which, I think, was the very first.

LRII did have a sister ship of sorts, an L3 named G-LIII:



Bell 206L3 G-LIII seen at Air Hanson's maintenance hangar at Brooklands, 30th March 1983. Paco's G-JLBI (Alton Towers) Long Ranger in the background

vfr440

Earl
British Car Auctions had a LongRanger, about 1980? Early one with the C20B engine and water/alcohol (in a tank in the baggage compartment)
to augment power (or lower TOT) for take-off. It'd be G-?BCA and TRC would know the answer ~ VFR

Helififtysix

Thanks for that, here is the only pic I have of G-LRII that maybe that will help shed some more light on it, plus its possiable I might have the reg wrong as you can see from the pic I really only have the last three letters

long box

I think the straight L you are thinking of is G-OLDN, formerly G-TBCA, I owned her for a while, I have her in my log book for many hundreds of hours, I have a huge admiration for the straight L, the odd day in the Summer, she struggles a little, we took the water injection out to save weight and space as we hardly used it. I still look after her now and it flies beautifully

Savoia

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Earl, VFR, Long Box .. you are all in fact correct - as explained below:

Heli56 the registration is correct as are the details proffered by Earl on this aircraft. Hopefully someone who flew LRII can give us a few stories.

While LRII was an early LongRanger, it was not the first in the UK.

The UK's first LongRanger was delivered to Ferranti Helicopters in April of 1977. My godfather ordered the aircraft through CSE on behalf of his client an Egyptian businessman called Mohamed Fayed (later to become known as Sheikh Mohamed Al Fayed).

Mr Fayed had been a loyal Ferranti client since 1972 and, inspired by what he experienced with Ferranti once told my godfather "I might start a helicopter business of my own". That was to take some time but in early '77 my godfather sold Mr Fayed his first helicopter a Bell 206, G-BAKX, which had been bought, if I recall correctly, from a builders outfit.

Mohamed Fayed saw the Bell publicity for the 206L in my godfather's office at Gatwick just weeks after having placed his order for G-BAKX and promptly added the LongRanger to the order. The aircraft was registered as G-BFAL and wore pale yellow and light metallic brown over white.

There are photos of my godfather (Col. Smith) and myself with BFAL at Farnborough '78 and at the home of Sy Rose who used to host a Farnborough 'after party' for rotary wingers. These images are at Martyn Fiddler's office at Stansted and which I need to have scanned next time I visit the UK.

BFAL wore various registrations, including G-TBCA, but ended up as G-OLDN and still flies, so I understand, using a C20 variant!

Of the early LongRangers, B-BFAL was the only aircraft to remain in the UK. Also, all of the UK's first 206L's were Bells as opposed to Agusta-Bells and which for Ferranti, even with a managed aircraft, was something of a break with tradition. Quite why Agusta never sold any of the initial 206L's into the UK I don't know.

The second LongRanger to arrive in the UK was Pat McHaffey's (ever competing with my godfather) G-BFTR which arrived somewhere in the middle of '78. This aircraft was eventually sold to Sweden.

The aircraft which is often cited as being the third 206L in the UK, G-BFYG, never was! That registration was identified for Agusta's first UK 206L demonstrator I-CDVM but, when the aircraft came to the UK in '79 (via Manfred Mann) it demonstrated at the Cranfield Airshow where a customer from Austria bought it and so the craft went straight to the Austrian register and the registration G-BFYG was re-allocated.



Agusta demonstrator I-CDVM at the '79 Cranfield Airshow where it was bought by an Austrian client. This aircraft would have been Mann's first UK 206L had it remained in the country.

Those who attended Cranfield '79 might recall the team from Agusta, it comprised of this aircraft plus a 109A. Agusta were still having trouble with lateral oscillations on the 109 in those days and to which problem my godfather had earlier recommended Ferranti's SAS system. Agusta did in fact resolve this problem with SAS (albeit not Ferranti's).

The Agusta team had allocated two pilots for I-CDVM (one of whom may well have been a Manfred Mann pilot) and were operating demonstration flights for would-be LongRanger customers. I mention this because throughout the show they employed an interesting landing technique involving lengthy run on landings which would slide the 'L' model up to Mann's allocated parking area alongside the 109 which would wheel its way there. It amused spectators if nothing else!

Additional early LongRangers included:

G-JAMI: James McCaughey. Delivered March '78. Re-sold to Sweden.

G-BFTR: Delivered to CSE in May '78 and bought by Air Hanson in November '78. Re-sold to Sweden.

G-DWMI: Glenwood Helicopters. Delivered February '79. Re-sold to Germany.

G-LONG: Air Hanson. Delivered May '79. Re-sold to the US.

Heli56's G-LRII which, as Earl pointed out, was delivered to CSE in May '79 and then to Castle Motors in August '79. LRII was eventually returned to the US. Castle Motors owner, Roy Flood, was also a Ferranti client, similarly buying his first aircraft from my godfather - G-BAKX, Mr Fayed's JetRanger!

G-WARM: Warmco. Delivered in April 1980. Re-sold to the US. This replaced Warmco's existing Bell 206 G-HEAT.

G-HBUS: Willowbrook. Delivered in November of '80. Re-sold to the US. Served for a season with the Toleman Group replacing their 206 G-TPTR.

G-JLBI: Alton Towers. Delivered in December 1981 (imported from Germany, formerly D-HBBZ). Re-sold to France. This aircraft was flown by both my godfather and PPRuNer Paco. JLBI's call sign was 'Alton 1'.

G-BKGG: Alan Mann. Delivered August '82 . Re-sold to Italy in August '83.

G-LIII: Air Hanson. Delivered in December '82. Re-sold to Australia. Became G-CJCB while in the UK.

G-BMKJ: Air Hanson. Delivered January '83. Re-sold to the US in June the following year.

Terribe trivia, but there we are!

S.

Jed A1

Somewhere in this history of British Longragers G-WARM (SN 45347) of Warmco Ltd., Mossley, Manchester has a place. It joined the G register in April 1980.

Savoia

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Well done Jed!

Amendments have been made accordingly.

WARM was rattling around in my mind, I remember her well in the standard Bell scheme, red and blue but with a lot of nasty writing all over it! The craft would visit Biggin Hill regularly.

S.

ps: Have since located an image of WARM, sadly not long after this photo the owner plastered her with ungainly advertising!



Space Heating's Bell 206L-1 II G-WARM departing Woodford June 1980

DennisK

Thanks Savoia ... for the super B206 recollections and pictures. Great stuff. But then to be reminded of the gent of helicopter aviation, Cy Rose. Cy was a great Enstrom man and operated G-BAWI (serial 120) for many years out of his home just off the M40. He part-exed this Enstrom with me for a turbo 28C and I'm guessing circa 1980 ish. His son Greg, was a highly talented clay/ceramics sculptor and who actually built a copy of a Ford Thunderbird in glass fibre (no joking.) He even made the chrome mouldings, I last saw the car at Cy's home. Greg learned to fly at BEAS Oxford on the Brantly B2B. Can't recall his FI but Greg was having a lesson with him when the M/R blade left the head. His instructor was sadly killed.

Back to the Enstrom, as Spooner Aviation later sold G-BAWI to the Lotus ace, Colin Chapman. I flew the machine for delivery into his Sunseeker base on the river. Then many years later, (1983 I think) I personally purchased from him the now well known, all-Back B206, G-AYTF in Team Lotus ... Gold Leaf colours & JPS Logo. (John Player Special for the smokers out there.)

Cy Rose was one of two 'founder Members' of the HCGB, the other being the Brewery owner, Tony Everard ... all about mid 1960s I'd guess.

Keep the trivia going guys ... but for we COF's ... so interesting. Dennis Kenyon.

Savoia

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Dennisimo: Cy was an incredibly pleasant human being. The last time I saw him would have been at the Cranfield Show in '79. At the same show both David George and Mike Smith were running around in 500's and many of the usual business operators from the 70's - Mann's etc. were there.

Cy walked me around to the Westward (I think) parking area where he told me he had bought a new Enstrom - it was not a Shark. He was very happy with it, told me to climb aboard and began showing me the new radio system (LED display) where you could pre-set radio frequencies and change them at the touch of a button - and he began loading the numbers for his journey home.

He had heard about 'Bob's godson' who could fly (I was 12 then) and when eventually Bob 'found me', Cy told him he was taking me home and that Bob should collect me from there in G-AWJW (which was visiting the show). Cy had wanted to see me fly!

Sadly, there were things to do and so I had to dismount the 'Rose Copter'. As it turns out, the Colonel's pressing engagement was a very boozy evening with a chap called Colin Heathcote (I think) who at Cranfied '79 I managed to harass so much with my professions of how great helicopters were that he promised to 'give it a try'. I understand he later went on the acquire an ATPL(H). He had formerly only ever flown planks!

But Cy always spoke to me as if I was much older than my years and which confidence met with my appreciation. He was simply a thoroughly decent person and, so it might seem, among the last of a special breed of 'helicopter gentlemen' as you say.

(Anyone with a photo of Cy please post or PM me for my email address).

Paco: Do you remeber at the Towers how visitors would sometimes inadvertantly stray into the vacinity of the helipad and enquire 'Is this a ride?'.

Actually Bob did respond to a query from JLB re: the concept but both agreed that it would not be economically viable and that the HSE implications from a CAA point of view (even in the early 80's) would be too cumbersome to make the exercise easily manageable. The main factors though were capacity and cost.

However, it seems that down under, at Dreamworld, they do have helicopter flights!

http://1.bp.********.com/_GL8CaCyCFe...er+Outside.JPG

S.

Note: The image has refused to post. To see the image paste the above link in your URL but substituting the asterisks for the word b l o g s p o t but without the spaces.

paco

Savoia - yes, there was a mention of doing rides when I was there, but the rides at Alton needed a throughput of 1000 people per hour, which would be next to impossible even with a fleet, aside from annoying the neighbours (didn't they move anyway?)

Phil

Planemike

My first ever flight in a helicopter was in G-WARM at Grappenhall Steam Fair 1983, accompanied by my pregnant partner......!!! Just thought you should know!!

Planemike

Earl of Rochester

Absolutely. Such information is critical!

Earl

Planemike

Earl....... Feel a very distinct tugging at my right leg !!!

An excellent thread, the info just keeps on coming........wonderful.

Planemike

Earl of Rochester

Back when helicopters made proper sounds and were not covered in black and yellow!



Lippitts Hill Control Room



Lippitts Hill maintenance room .. oops .. I mean hangar!



On board the 222



Bells over London



Searching ...

I was lucky enough to find a transcript of the original conversation between the Commissioner of Police (COP) and the Bell Helicopter Textron Representative (BHT):

COP: They are not exactly quiet are they?
BHT: The 222 has been designed by Bell's finest and with Police duties in mind. It comes with what we call ACDF (Audible Criminal Deterrent Feature).
COP: Oh, okay, what is that?
BHT: Did you ever watch the film Apocalypse Now?
COP: Yes I did how ..
BHT: Well, our guys at Bell did a swell job of helping the US Army then, and we can do the same for you now!
COP: But how does ..
BHT: The point is Commissioner, when your London criminals here this baby comin' they're gonna run for the hills, or subways, or whatever you have here in London. You see our Army psychologists were able to prove the sound made by our Huey's actually drove fear into Charlie, .. those are your criminals. We've designed the Police version of the 222 to reproduce the best of the Huey's footprint, well, that's what they're gonna call it in the future, .. and we've made the gear retractable!
COP: So what you are saying is that you have applied your understanding of the pschological impact of the sound of your helicopters, taken from their service with the US Army in Vietnam and adapted it to the Police version of the 222?
BHT: Exactly, now you've got it, plus .. it has retractable gear.
COP: So what does this mean for us here in London then?
BHT: Well Commissioner, I would have thought that was obvious! All you have to do is fly around the City and most of your criminals will stop what they are doing, that's the beauty of ACDF!
COP: Really?
BHT: Yessir, that's why I'm here.
COP: And you actually think it will work do you?
BHT: Or your money back (lol).
COP: And the helicopter has a retractable undercarriage?
BHT: Its the real deal, just like a jet, this is the latest thing Mr Commissioner this is the first of its kind. You are gonna be streets ahead of anything else anywhere in the world, even in the US we're still using helos with skids!



On a serious note, the Met pioneered tactical airborne police operations in the UK in that the high standard of fit on the Met's 222's enabled them to provide information which had never before been available in real time. From there, as they say, the rest is history.

Earl

Epiphany

It still must retain the award for the "unlikeliest of helicopter type' for a capital city police role - even with 'blade slap criminal deterrent value' or whatever the term Americans use for noisy.

long box

Fantastic pictures of the 222's I am lucky enough to be flying a 222 every week at the moment, superb helicopter, superb noise, yes we all know enviromental etc etc, but what everywhere you take she will draw a crowd away from any of the newer stuff and it is always accepted with great affection. Same theory, its a Bell, it looks right and it will fly right