Helicopters and Volcanic Ash?
Nigel might be shocked but I am with him on this one - even the red zone (which we have been in and out of over the last 2 days) is so unscientific as to be laughable.
There is no measuring going on to validate the zones - it is all the prediction of the oh so fabulous Met Office computer - you know, the one that said we would have a BBQ Summer last year. As with all computer models of the atmosphere it is 10% fact and 90% guess-work - they still can't forecast the weather with any accuracy more than 12 hours ahead!
Did we notice a change in the atmosphere as the red zone came and then cleared? Er No... it still looked 8/8 blue on Tuesday and it is clear as a bell today whilst the met man 'accurately' states we will be under it until 1800Z.
There is no measuring going on to validate the zones - it is all the prediction of the oh so fabulous Met Office computer - you know, the one that said we would have a BBQ Summer last year. As with all computer models of the atmosphere it is 10% fact and 90% guess-work - they still can't forecast the weather with any accuracy more than 12 hours ahead!
Did we notice a change in the atmosphere as the red zone came and then cleared? Er No... it still looked 8/8 blue on Tuesday and it is clear as a bell today whilst the met man 'accurately' states we will be under it until 1800Z.
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Crab, you and Nige must have great eyes to be able to see such small particles, who needs Hubble with you two about 
Sadly I doubt this post will get on the thread as it seems a few are already missing, if these are being moderated can we be informed as such please?
I don't think anything I have posted is inflamitory
Sadly I doubt this post will get on the thread as it seems a few are already missing, if these are being moderated can we be informed as such please?
I don't think anything I have posted is inflamitory
Crab ...I am shocked 
However for once i was not trying to be a wind up merchant ....!!! I do genuinely believe that aviation companies have a real problem when their pilots actively try to seek reasons why NOT to fly
I am certain there is NO evidence that any helicopter has EVER come to any harm from ash when flying in clear blue sky with 30nm + of viz 
Sorry Girls , Vol wotsit and Bogey ...accept it that you were just plain WRONG on this one . I reckon that most pilots on this site wanted to fly during the days when viz was excellent and were only stopped by their companies worries about insurance etc I understand them not flying but what i DONT understand is you guys who were DETERMINED not to fly ....posting photos of damaged engines from the airliner that lost all engines ....what relevance does that have !!!
Dont believe me , because i am an owner and you are obviously a bit chippy about that ....but why not believe some of the other posts from V experienced people like Crab and others ?? People like you just made the problem much worse pandering to it without using your brain first and sadly you are STILL doing that
If you really want to believe it is still dangerous and there is a mountain of ash in gin clear skies ,then there is only one thing to do ...make a stand and refuse to fly ...that would be the only sensible thing to do . I , like countless others ,believe you are wrong and that it is safe to fly when you can see the sky is clear .
However for once i was not trying to be a wind up merchant ....!!! I do genuinely believe that aviation companies have a real problem when their pilots actively try to seek reasons why NOT to fly I am certain there is NO evidence that any helicopter has EVER come to any harm from ash when flying in clear blue sky with 30nm + of viz Sorry Girls , Vol wotsit and Bogey ...accept it that you were just plain WRONG on this one . I reckon that most pilots on this site wanted to fly during the days when viz was excellent and were only stopped by their companies worries about insurance etc I understand them not flying but what i DONT understand is you guys who were DETERMINED not to fly ....posting photos of damaged engines from the airliner that lost all engines ....what relevance does that have !!! Dont believe me , because i am an owner and you are obviously a bit chippy about that ....but why not believe some of the other posts from V experienced people like Crab and others ?? People like you just made the problem much worse pandering to it without using your brain first and sadly you are STILL doing that
If you really want to believe it is still dangerous and there is a mountain of ash in gin clear skies ,then there is only one thing to do ...make a stand and refuse to fly ...that would be the only sensible thing to do . I , like countless others ,believe you are wrong and that it is safe to fly when you can see the sky is clear .
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Nige, well for one I dont have a chip on my shoulder re you owning helicopter(s) The saying goes "how do you make a small fortune in helicopters??? start of witha large fortune" I am happy to be crew and thats as far as I want to go, I guess I am therefore in a better position than yourself as I don't have finacial pressure to fly when I am told by those that KNOW not to
Sadly the Ex-Spurts like yourself will ignore all the warnings and fly only because you havea commercial interest to do so. I really worry about all this as you won't be convinced until your end up with a large bill for ash damaged engine or worse still the loss of the whole aircrfat God forbid.
Then I guess you will be moaning about not getting adequate information on the dangers and look for someone to blame and claim.....
Sadly the Ex-Spurts like yourself will ignore all the warnings and fly only because you havea commercial interest to do so. I really worry about all this as you won't be convinced until your end up with a large bill for ash damaged engine or worse still the loss of the whole aircrfat God forbid.
Then I guess you will be moaning about not getting adequate information on the dangers and look for someone to blame and claim.....
I guess I am therefore in a better position than yourself as I don't have finacial pressure to fly when I am told by those that KNOW not to
Vol , you really dont get it do you ??
1) I dont have any pressure to fly financial or otherwise and i am very pleased you are happy to remain crew ...good for you , i like a man who knows his place
2) We have established that those who told us DIDNT know ...that my dear fellow is the whole point of this discussion
and its gone clear over your head.
I am pretty sure that even I could speak for Crab and others when i say that if people WITH experience said No fly ....we would No fly ...period ...that is NOT what happened ...the people who made the decision had NO expertise re flying whatsoever and we would still be grounded if it wasnt for Willie Walsh ...but thats another story.
ps On every other issue i think Walsh has got it wrong ...but even a blind squirrel will find a nut eventually
Vol , you really dont get it do you ??
1) I dont have any pressure to fly financial or otherwise and i am very pleased you are happy to remain crew ...good for you , i like a man who knows his place
2) We have established that those who told us DIDNT know ...that my dear fellow is the whole point of this discussion
and its gone clear over your head. I am pretty sure that even I could speak for Crab and others when i say that if people WITH experience said No fly ....we would No fly ...period ...that is NOT what happened ...the people who made the decision had NO expertise re flying whatsoever and we would still be grounded if it wasnt for Willie Walsh ...but thats another story.
ps On every other issue i think Walsh has got it wrong ...but even a blind squirrel will find a nut eventually
Last edited by nigelh; 6th May 2010 at 17:45.
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Nige, your right I and all the others know nothing so I will beg to your greater knowledge and consider this whole thing as a bonus to my drab life and its bad learning curve. I will now crawl back under my stone and only come out in the morning if the sun is up so I can warm my scales
I guess thats what you wanted to hear.... Only too happy to oblige.... I lost interest when you mentioned Willhe or wont he Walsh that great man who will bring BA down...
I guess thats what you wanted to hear.... Only too happy to oblige.... I lost interest when you mentioned Willhe or wont he Walsh that great man who will bring BA down...
Volrider,
Can you stop the personal bashing for just the few seconds it takes to answer my previously posted questions regarding the picture of yours?
Either you know, or you have found it toghether with the rest you find on Google, ie. you don't know!!
Can you stop the personal bashing for just the few seconds it takes to answer my previously posted questions regarding the picture of yours?
Either you know, or you have found it toghether with the rest you find on Google, ie. you don't know!!
Isn't this a rumour network?
Girls
Would you mind taking your slanging match offline? I for one, am not interested in what appears to have become a personal argument and is off topic.
Would you mind taking your slanging match offline? I for one, am not interested in what appears to have become a personal argument and is off topic.
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NigelH, whislt I have enjoyed the banter with you I hope you do not really believe that we were "scared" of the ash.
The first sensible point you have made is that the restrictions had little to do with flight safety...as the effects of a dispersed ashcloud were only ever going to be...trashed engines. We all knew that.
Thats why I have always said I fly when my Company says it's OK.
Having siad all that...you are a bit of a moron.
The first sensible point you have made is that the restrictions had little to do with flight safety...as the effects of a dispersed ashcloud were only ever going to be...trashed engines. We all knew that.
Thats why I have always said I fly when my Company says it's OK.
Having siad all that...you are a bit of a moron.
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NigelH...sorry mate, that was a bit uncalled for. You are not a moron I am just a bit common you see. I do not own anything. That makes me ideal cannon fodder for scare mongerers.
If I get made redundant cos of all the ash...and I apologise really really nicely...can I have a job with you...I promise to fly whenever I am told to do so and keep stuuuum whenever necessary. I could even learn to fly an R22 and stuff.
If you can't see it...it can't hurt you.
Bet I get modded for that!!!
If I get made redundant cos of all the ash...and I apologise really really nicely...can I have a job with you...I promise to fly whenever I am told to do so and keep stuuuum whenever necessary. I could even learn to fly an R22 and stuff.
If you can't see it...it can't hurt you.
Bet I get modded for that!!!
Chief Bottle Washer
We've now had 7 pages of Volrider, Double Bogey and nigelh engaged in their never ending disagreement: and that's not counting the deleted posts 
I made the point back in Post 199: play the ball, not the man
Whether nigelh is an aircraft owner or not is not a cause for insult, and neither is it a fair response to denigrate another Rotorhead for not wanting to run a business. Openly posting "Bet I get modded for that" type comments doesn't do much for my neutrality , either....
Back to a rational discussion on Helicopters and Volcanic Ash (not airliners at FL340) without the personal insults, chaps and chapesses
I made the point back in Post 199: play the ball, not the man
Whether nigelh is an aircraft owner or not is not a cause for insult, and neither is it a fair response to denigrate another Rotorhead for not wanting to run a business. Openly posting "Bet I get modded for that" type comments doesn't do much for my neutrality , either....
Back to a rational discussion on Helicopters and Volcanic Ash (not airliners at FL340) without the personal insults, chaps and chapesses
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A quick refreshment.
It's not a matter of whether or not the drivers would be prepared to drive during those times when the UK is within the black or red zones, the overriding factor is the reaction from the engine manufacturers and other similarly interested parties, when they are telling operators that warranties etc will not be valid.
Even though Nige owns his own aircraft, I would have thought that if the engine manufacturers sent him a directive voiding any warranties or contracts if he flies during these periods of ash, and he does, he is clearly 'considerably richer than us oiks', or has no maintenance contract.
When it's a clear blue sky, I for one would be happy to take the ship out. I think most of us can see what's going on. If there is no health risk, and I'm sure a human lung is more delicate than a turbine engine, what's the worry? However, when the company tells me that I can't go out because of an ambiguous directive from these 'interested parties', which would mean a large cost a few months down the line (and you know that any damage found, whatever the true cause, will be tech log investigated in an attempt to relate it to flight within the ash zone), I don't go. Simples.
I'm sure that the operator and crew of the S76 that was to-ing and fro-ing the other week, when everyone else was stuck on the ground, realised what was happening.
It seems that the shot at discrediting the aviation industry with a cheap yet disastrous attempt to show how a clear sky policy is the way ahead, (that was raising its head once more at the beginning of all this), has hit nothing but a few 'Green' feet.
Iceland volcano causes fall in carbon emissions as eruption grounds aircraft | Environment | guardian.co.uk
I wish they would get things right first time round.
Some research mistake, or fiddling the figures and getting caught out?
Even though Nige owns his own aircraft, I would have thought that if the engine manufacturers sent him a directive voiding any warranties or contracts if he flies during these periods of ash, and he does, he is clearly 'considerably richer than us oiks', or has no maintenance contract.
When it's a clear blue sky, I for one would be happy to take the ship out. I think most of us can see what's going on. If there is no health risk, and I'm sure a human lung is more delicate than a turbine engine, what's the worry? However, when the company tells me that I can't go out because of an ambiguous directive from these 'interested parties', which would mean a large cost a few months down the line (and you know that any damage found, whatever the true cause, will be tech log investigated in an attempt to relate it to flight within the ash zone), I don't go. Simples.
I'm sure that the operator and crew of the S76 that was to-ing and fro-ing the other week, when everyone else was stuck on the ground, realised what was happening.
It seems that the shot at discrediting the aviation industry with a cheap yet disastrous attempt to show how a clear sky policy is the way ahead, (that was raising its head once more at the beginning of all this), has hit nothing but a few 'Green' feet.
Iceland volcano causes fall in carbon emissions as eruption grounds aircraft | Environment | guardian.co.uk
According to the Environmental Transport Association, by the end of today (21 April) the flight ban will have prevented the emission of some 2.8m tonnes of carbon dioxide since the first flights were grounded.
Worldwide, the US Geological Survey says volcanoes produce about 200m tonnes of carbon dioxide every year.
Worldwide, the US Geological Survey says volcanoes produce about 200m tonnes of carbon dioxide every year.
• This article was changed on 21 April. It originally said the volcano has emitted about 15,000 tonnes of CO2 each day. Information is Beautiful has since corrected this figure to 150,000; we have updated our article to reflect this.
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Odd thing is last week or so when we had the "shut down" the weather was warm the skies were clear with no visible ash/dust in the air, yet the cars where I live all had deposits on them and it aint from the sparrows... So just because its not seen does not mean its not there
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odd indeed!
"...The media in Britain has reported widespread claims of ash falls over cars, gardens and streets throughout Britain, but these reports are likely to have been greatly exaggerated. Members of RHOXTOR5, have been laying volcanic ash traps in various parts of Britain to establish the concentration of glass particles actually falling to ground.
Dr Blockley says, “While the process of analysis is still at an early stage, nevertheless swabs taken from cars in various parts of Britain have not included any volcanic glass, but only pollen grains and non-volcanic dust. The only samples from which volcanic glass has been recovered so far are of rainwater collected from Englefield Green in Surrey and Fort William in Scotland. These fall into an expected size range of between 0.025 and 0.1 mm in size, and are in very low concentrations..."
Who is to be believed???
Dr Blockley says, “While the process of analysis is still at an early stage, nevertheless swabs taken from cars in various parts of Britain have not included any volcanic glass, but only pollen grains and non-volcanic dust. The only samples from which volcanic glass has been recovered so far are of rainwater collected from Englefield Green in Surrey and Fort William in Scotland. These fall into an expected size range of between 0.025 and 0.1 mm in size, and are in very low concentrations..."
Who is to be believed???
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Odd thing is last week or so when we had the "shut down" the weather was warm the skies were clear with no visible ash/dust in the air, yet the cars where I live all had deposits on them and it aint from the sparrows... So just because its not seen does not mean its not there
What is strange here is that when we are supposed to be enveloped in volcanic ash deposits, there are no deposits of any description on my car, yet when the blanket gets blown away, the pollen reappears
Should we stop flying during the spring/summer months? I for one have seen no data on the damage that pollen does to a turbine engine. Do the turbine blades get coated with a honey like substance?
Quick NATS, close the airspace until pollen levels reach a Met Office computer modelled safe level
Volrider,
From my previous post:
Now, your reply right under my post (which I didn't miss the first time) does not have ANY answers to the above questions, and as I was genuinely interessted in your reply.
But don't bother
From my previous post:
What kind of a/c, where is it from and when is the picture taken?
And if you know, for how long has the engine been exposed to ash?
And if you know, for how long has the engine been exposed to ash?
But don't bother
Last edited by Nubian; 7th May 2010 at 20:50.
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Evening all...
I have flown a couple of times in the red zone (below 4000 ft) without any problems. No noticible engine fluctuations, no sulphuric rotten egg type smell etc. After each flight I noted that on the windscreen there were streaks of grey ash like substance, all be it very light and easily cleaned.
Just an observation people, I'm not taking sides in the argument...
BC
I have flown a couple of times in the red zone (below 4000 ft) without any problems. No noticible engine fluctuations, no sulphuric rotten egg type smell etc. After each flight I noted that on the windscreen there were streaks of grey ash like substance, all be it very light and easily cleaned.
Just an observation people, I'm not taking sides in the argument...
BC
