Aberdeen delay question
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Aberdeen delay question
I'm a ATC controller at Aberdeen and recently I have noticed helicopter pilots starting to question the slightest hold and how long the delay for.This is for SVFR inbounds,IFR outbounds and concerns all companies.Is there any reason for this?
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If it's an AS332L then its probably due to fuel, we give the client max payload after taking into account all the fuel we need and that only leaves a very small margin for error. We add fuel for taxi and sometimes on a busy morning the normal taxi fuel isn't enough. It can be a bit of a gamble sometimes as if we take too much fuel for taxi and have no delays we are then overweight for take off and have to burn it off, done that twice now and had to taxi to W 1 and 5 on different days. The flip side which you are probably thinking of, is if we don't have sufficient to hold for too an extended period of time then we need to know so we can taxi back into dispersal, remove our pax and refuel.
We might seem like a funny bunch (helicopter pilots), and some like me have no idea about stuck wing ops, but we are merely trying to operate efficiently.
Hope that helps
We might seem like a funny bunch (helicopter pilots), and some like me have no idea about stuck wing ops, but we are merely trying to operate efficiently.
Hope that helps
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Fuel will also be the reason in the L2, we don't want to go back to the ramp for fuel if we can help it or divert when inbound and being held for ILS traffic, particularly if the met office issues coastal tafs and the airport then closes for snow that isn't forecast until hours later. Every minute can count for us.
In the 225's with greater fuel capacity and higher AUW it may be more down to pilots not seeing why the runway isn't being sectorised to allow more efficient use of the space, and inbound, not wanting to completely drain rigs of their fuel stocks, may be similarly tighter on fuel thus limiting available holding times before a diversion will be necessary.
In the 225's with greater fuel capacity and higher AUW it may be more down to pilots not seeing why the runway isn't being sectorised to allow more efficient use of the space, and inbound, not wanting to completely drain rigs of their fuel stocks, may be similarly tighter on fuel thus limiting available holding times before a diversion will be necessary.
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I understand the outbound situation with taxi fuel and trying to get departures away.That's why I will always get gaps and the delays are reduced as much as possible.However why do all the companies depart at the same time,when the fixed wings are departing (on slot times).This also clashes with an inbound rush, and simple maths means delays for someone.Also there are strict rules about how we sectorise the runway.
However the noticeable change is some getting really A
sy about even the slightest hold in SVFR.It just seems that some want no delay out,and the flip side no delay in ,when SVFR in Mats part 1 is lower priority over IFR.
When asked what the delay is for SVFR,when I'm really busy,I often cannot answer that question.This often can get into a call the Watch Manager situation,because I'm entitled to say less than 20 minutes is no delay.
It just seems to be happening a lot more recently.
However the noticeable change is some getting really A
sy about even the slightest hold in SVFR.It just seems that some want no delay out,and the flip side no delay in ,when SVFR in Mats part 1 is lower priority over IFR.When asked what the delay is for SVFR,when I'm really busy,I often cannot answer that question.This often can get into a call the Watch Manager situation,because I'm entitled to say less than 20 minutes is no delay.
It just seems to be happening a lot more recently.
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The inbound situation can be just as fuel critical as outbound. We are often operating to "coastal" TAFs which allow us to do away with an alternate as you will know. If you then get held it is really helpful to know for how long it is going to be, especially if it looks like the weather could close in at any moment due to say, a very large snow shower. In the recent conditions, a VFR approach is preferable to being in the pattern at 2500' getting nicely iced up. You may like to take a trip in a Puma with 30-40mm of ice on it - its not a bundle of fun especially when it starts to come off!
Why are people getting more excitable? Perhaps it is the end (hopefully) of one of the worst winters in 30 years and we are getting a little tired
Why are people getting more excitable? Perhaps it is the end (hopefully) of one of the worst winters in 30 years and we are getting a little tired
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Cyclic,
I'm not really referring to VFR.It's SVFR when I have to separate from other SVFR and IFR.We have to make gaps to get SVFRs in against IFR,and then that delays other traffic icing up at 2500ft.Flip side of the coin is we pack in the IFR,and the SVFR(lower priority) and outbounds start bleating.Can't win eh
I'm sure that when SVFR was thought of it was intended for C152 getting in with weather slightly under VFR criteria.Not for commercial twin turbine helis doing 160 kts,using it to carry extra load and less fuel.
I have also had circuit and airtest traffic moan about delays and they are the lowest priority of the lot.
I think some of ATC are getting a bit weiry of this as well,and it's not just me.It's not always in snow conditions.
Anyway next one asks I'll say delay less than 20 mins and wait for the response.You can always declare an emergency and then we will part the waves.
I'm not really referring to VFR.It's SVFR when I have to separate from other SVFR and IFR.We have to make gaps to get SVFRs in against IFR,and then that delays other traffic icing up at 2500ft.Flip side of the coin is we pack in the IFR,and the SVFR(lower priority) and outbounds start bleating.Can't win eh
I'm sure that when SVFR was thought of it was intended for C152 getting in with weather slightly under VFR criteria.Not for commercial twin turbine helis doing 160 kts,using it to carry extra load and less fuel.
I have also had circuit and airtest traffic moan about delays and they are the lowest priority of the lot.
I think some of ATC are getting a bit weiry of this as well,and it's not just me.It's not always in snow conditions.
Anyway next one asks I'll say delay less than 20 mins and wait for the response.You can always declare an emergency and then we will part the waves.
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For inbounds, as I only too well remember after 6 hours in the seat in goon bag, jacket and all the rest of the gear the exploding bladder scenario may be taking all the more mature aviator's concentration.
I once got held on left base for 15 mins (due controller training, she was following the rules, not squeezing us in the way the experienced controllers would) and then got a complaint from both company and ATC for leaping out of my seat for a pee on the grass at the tower side of the den. It was either that or find out how good my suit was from the inside!
As for the outbounds I do remember siting at one of the W holds watching the taxi fuel burn off and rapidly re-juggling the plan. It sounds from this thread that the pressure is coming on to burn a lot less gas.
I once got held on left base for 15 mins (due controller training, she was following the rules, not squeezing us in the way the experienced controllers would) and then got a complaint from both company and ATC for leaping out of my seat for a pee on the grass at the tower side of the den. It was either that or find out how good my suit was from the inside!
As for the outbounds I do remember siting at one of the W holds watching the taxi fuel burn off and rapidly re-juggling the plan. It sounds from this thread that the pressure is coming on to burn a lot less gas.
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Not for commercial twin turbine helis doing 160 kts,using it to carry extra load and less fuel.
As for declaring an emergency, you can see the P&J headline now can't you?
"North Sea Chopper in Fuel Scare Horror etc, etc."
We need to avoid this at all costs for obvious reasons. ATC do a great job at ABZ most of the time. Pilots at ABZ do a great job most of the time. Sometimes a little understanding on both sides goes a long way.
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Noiseboy, you wrote
Can you explain what you mean by 'the runway isn't being sectorised'?
Sectorisation is subject to quite strict criteria (vis/cloud etc) and is mainly of use to depart a helicopter in front of a landing one - it cannot help improve the departure rate when there are no inbounds such as first thing in the morning.
For everyone - one other thing you have to remember that has changed in the last two years is that we (ATC) now HAVE to apply standard Wake Turbulence spacing - any ATCO who doesn't faces a tea without biscuits situation. Thus for VFR/SVFR you get the obligatory 'recommended spacing xxx' warning. Whether those flying VFR/SVFR follow the recommendation is entirely down to them. BUT in order to allow for those that do wish to position themselves the appropriate distance behind other traffic, we (ATC) HAVE to have the required gap 'built-in' to the sequence. That sequence and built-in spacing also affects the aircraft behind you - to allow you to turn final and land before the next ILS traffic 'busts' the Wake Turbulence spacing required by that aircraft. With an L, L2, 225 or 92 Number 1 that means you must have vacated the runway before the next landing Jetstream/Saab 340/other Light category aircraft gets to 4 mile final. (3 miles for Small/Lower Medium category.) For the purposes of this, Runways 32/34 are considered to be a single runway.
So the days of 'squeezing you in' as someone else posted are in reality, gone.
Safe flying
DD
In the 225's with greater fuel capacity and higher AUW it may be more down to pilots not seeing why the runway isn't being sectorised to allow more efficient use of the space,
Sectorisation is subject to quite strict criteria (vis/cloud etc) and is mainly of use to depart a helicopter in front of a landing one - it cannot help improve the departure rate when there are no inbounds such as first thing in the morning.
For everyone - one other thing you have to remember that has changed in the last two years is that we (ATC) now HAVE to apply standard Wake Turbulence spacing - any ATCO who doesn't faces a tea without biscuits situation. Thus for VFR/SVFR you get the obligatory 'recommended spacing xxx' warning. Whether those flying VFR/SVFR follow the recommendation is entirely down to them. BUT in order to allow for those that do wish to position themselves the appropriate distance behind other traffic, we (ATC) HAVE to have the required gap 'built-in' to the sequence. That sequence and built-in spacing also affects the aircraft behind you - to allow you to turn final and land before the next ILS traffic 'busts' the Wake Turbulence spacing required by that aircraft. With an L, L2, 225 or 92 Number 1 that means you must have vacated the runway before the next landing Jetstream/Saab 340/other Light category aircraft gets to 4 mile final. (3 miles for Small/Lower Medium category.) For the purposes of this, Runways 32/34 are considered to be a single runway.
So the days of 'squeezing you in' as someone else posted are in reality, gone.
Safe flying
DD
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ATC do a great job at ABZ most of the time. Pilots at ABZ do a great job most of the time. Sometimes a little understanding on both sides goes a long way.
It would also be nice to have some of the ATC offshore controllers come with us just to see our side of the job, and also more pilots visit ATC to see their side of the job. Those pilots from my company who have visited ATC have found it to be a very worthwhile experience and now have a better understanding as to why controllers ask us to do certain things like holding at Balmedie in SVFR. (Where exactly is the Balmedie hold? - we have NOBAL and BALIS in our systems, but not "Balmedie").
Some even had the chance to have a go on the ATC simulator and found it wasn't so easy to mix in rotary and fixed wing (who no doubt moan in the real world that they have to hold because of inbound helicopters short of fuel) - and that was without all the phones going!
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To add to DD point about vortex.A certain operator that resides on the East side,are so slow vacating the runway,that a normal gap is not large enough to safely adhere to the vortex criteria for following traffic.You can have well in excess of the vortex spacing when they are over the localiser,but it has gone by the time they crawl off the runway.That's the commercial flights,the trainers are 
dreadful.The answer is even bigger gaps,or hold them until it's safe.Then they moan as usual.
Actually you get tea and no biscuits just for doing you job properly.The rules are there for everyones safety,as it's the small turbo prop that will roll over,having been driven through vortex from a heli cutting in front.The ATCO will be in the dock.
dreadful.The answer is even bigger gaps,or hold them until it's safe.Then they moan as usual.Actually you get tea and no biscuits just for doing you job properly.The rules are there for everyones safety,as it's the small turbo prop that will roll over,having been driven through vortex from a heli cutting in front.The ATCO will be in the dock.
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but it has gone by the time they crawl off the runway
TV
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Probably because some of the east side crews tend to land on the runway and vacate (especially on 34) rather than vacating in the hover as the other two operators tend to do. Admittedly, the west side is easier to vacate with 32 available, and now 18 as well.
It is not a new comment, though, and it has been like this for years. Perhaps the east side operator has different checks/procedures compared to the others.
It is not a new comment, though, and it has been like this for years. Perhaps the east side operator has different checks/procedures compared to the others.
Many years ago we had the Air Traffic Control Assistants go on strike at Aberdeen. It was at a time when Bristows alone were launching 60-70 flights a day. To make ATC work at all slot times were introduced. Traffic has never gone so smoothly at Aberdeen before or since.
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TAD
I specifically avoided being personal or childish but your comments regarding the East side helicopter operator and how they operate probably won't do your case much good. The previous respondents are absolutely correct about 32 and 23 making the west side easier to vacate to. The East side helicopter operator are the only company that generally uses the main on the majority of occasions. Sometimes turning off in the hover putting the aircraft downwind is not feasible or safe. Sometimes being 90 degrees out of wind is particularly uncomfortable in the Puma. Sometimes E2/3 are the last taxiways to be de-iced or swept. Perhaps the East side helicopter operator's crews are being particularly cautious for obvious reasons. Perhaps the East side helicopter operator has the biggest number of new crews?
However, where possible most crews will vacate in the hover if they can. If you want to pop across and have a chat then I am sure you will made most welcome. If you have a genuine grievance then there is a formal setting where you can vent your spleen!
I specifically avoided being personal or childish but your comments regarding the East side helicopter operator and how they operate probably won't do your case much good. The previous respondents are absolutely correct about 32 and 23 making the west side easier to vacate to. The East side helicopter operator are the only company that generally uses the main on the majority of occasions. Sometimes turning off in the hover putting the aircraft downwind is not feasible or safe. Sometimes being 90 degrees out of wind is particularly uncomfortable in the Puma. Sometimes E2/3 are the last taxiways to be de-iced or swept. Perhaps the East side helicopter operator's crews are being particularly cautious for obvious reasons. Perhaps the East side helicopter operator has the biggest number of new crews?
However, where possible most crews will vacate in the hover if they can. If you want to pop across and have a chat then I am sure you will made most welcome. If you have a genuine grievance then there is a formal setting where you can vent your spleen!
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"Throw a Dyce" if you ever hold me inbound and I am short of fuel I will reply with my available fuel (less final reserve) expressed in holding minutes so you can then prioritise.
I think its a dangerous practice for us all to start questioning ATC. They have enough to do and if the controller has held us...you can bet he is busy.
Its simple, if short of fuel - tell some one before it becomes a problem...otherwise shut up and wait your turn.
For outbounds it gets a little more tricky but to be honest I add extra taxi fuel based on the time of day to cope with this.
To answer the question as to why we all try and get airborne at the same time......its what the Oil Companys want...so its what they get. It needs ATC to some extent to grow some balls and impose some kind of slot system on us. That would definitley help.
DB
I think its a dangerous practice for us all to start questioning ATC. They have enough to do and if the controller has held us...you can bet he is busy.
Its simple, if short of fuel - tell some one before it becomes a problem...otherwise shut up and wait your turn.
For outbounds it gets a little more tricky but to be honest I add extra taxi fuel based on the time of day to cope with this.
To answer the question as to why we all try and get airborne at the same time......its what the Oil Companys want...so its what they get. It needs ATC to some extent to grow some balls and impose some kind of slot system on us. That would definitley help.
DB
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Double Bogey,
To be honest I am not interested in a helicopters fuel state unless they declare an emergency.If a particular crew wants to cut it fine for whatever reason then that's their problem.My problem is protecting the runway and being safe and fair to everyone.
Cyclic,
I have already mentioned the East side operator to the powers that be.I think most Tower controllers are very wary as most have learned the hard way.However the standard gap doesn't work with them,as they are so slow from the threshold to touching down.My answer is I hold them until I can either set up a bigger gap,or make sure the following aircraft is in a medium category.An inbound fixed wing can travel 5 miles from the time they travel from the localiser to touchdown.The following light category must be at or over 4 miles at that point.Therefore I must have 9 miles,and more like 12 miles to try and set it up.The standard gap is 8 miles.Now you go and figure.
What happened when I held an East side operator in SVFR due weather,traffic,deicing a runway,and 6 waiting outbounds.They complained on the R/T and then by phone.Charming
To be honest I am not interested in a helicopters fuel state unless they declare an emergency.If a particular crew wants to cut it fine for whatever reason then that's their problem.My problem is protecting the runway and being safe and fair to everyone.
Cyclic,
I have already mentioned the East side operator to the powers that be.I think most Tower controllers are very wary as most have learned the hard way.However the standard gap doesn't work with them,as they are so slow from the threshold to touching down.My answer is I hold them until I can either set up a bigger gap,or make sure the following aircraft is in a medium category.An inbound fixed wing can travel 5 miles from the time they travel from the localiser to touchdown.The following light category must be at or over 4 miles at that point.Therefore I must have 9 miles,and more like 12 miles to try and set it up.The standard gap is 8 miles.Now you go and figure.
What happened when I held an East side operator in SVFR due weather,traffic,deicing a runway,and 6 waiting outbounds.They complained on the R/T and then by phone.Charming
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Logs for the fire!
Incoming!
Every minute in the air is big bucks for the helicopter operators.
The east side crews, new or not should be able to vacate a runway as quick as any experienced pilot. They also get to use 23 and a hover to the right to vacate 34 is hardly rocket science.
The oil company penalty clauses regarding late departures do not effect safety but do cause conflict between management and pilots. I do not know a pilot personally on the north sea who actually rushes to a point where safety is compromised just to be away on time.
It really is stupid for helicopter operators to schedule same time departures from Aberdeen at 07:00hrs.
Aberdeen ATC in my opinion are superb. They are for obvious reasons the best I have ever experienced for helicopter/fixed wing operations.
Thank you to them!
Incoming!
Every minute in the air is big bucks for the helicopter operators.
The east side crews, new or not should be able to vacate a runway as quick as any experienced pilot. They also get to use 23 and a hover to the right to vacate 34 is hardly rocket science.
The oil company penalty clauses regarding late departures do not effect safety but do cause conflict between management and pilots. I do not know a pilot personally on the north sea who actually rushes to a point where safety is compromised just to be away on time.
It really is stupid for helicopter operators to schedule same time departures from Aberdeen at 07:00hrs.
Aberdeen ATC in my opinion are superb. They are for obvious reasons the best I have ever experienced for helicopter/fixed wing operations.
Thank you to them!
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If a particular crew wants to cut it fine for whatever reason then that's their problem.
DB was giving sensible information that would allow any reasonable professional the opportunity to avoid a worsening situation.
If you treat all the crews in the same manner then after a while all the crews will be less likely to help. As I said before, I think we generally get an excellent service from ATC and we are always willing to help where we can. Sometimes it is not what is said, it is the way it is said and someone with your obvious experience will know this. I'm sure that if you and your colleagues have a genuine concern about how one of the companies operates then there is a formal process where that concern can be addressed. I know for a fact it would be taken very seriously and if proved to have some foundation would be acted on.